I had originally posted this in an other thread but think it could stand alone as a discussion.
My trade is Remodeling and insurance work on houses and commercial buildings. It might sound strange that some one who fixes old stuff would be well versed in the latest cutting edge science of energy, well green systems actually account for quite a bit of what we do.
I have been interested in green power since I was in high school and am working on some ideas that are pretty revolutionary. I intend to give the ideas away to every one any way, i have no interest in trying to patent a system and sell it I intend to make my profit off of the power I generate. So here is a short version of what Im working on.
Green power can be expensive. Out of the box systems are definitely expensive. But if you can do the work yourself you cut around 40% from the price which is the true cost of labor when balanced against what your own time is worth. You can look for deals on equipment or find other folks needing the same equipment and buy in lots, you could easily shave another 10-20%. You would still have to have a licensed electrician do the final inspection and hook ups.
In the U.S. if you can produce more power than you use and your equipment passes code the electric co. has to purchase your power. With the coming green revolution, as the Feds keep upping the amount of power that has to be generated threw green sources, the incentive for the power co to want to buy your power is growing daily which means the pricing might start to favor the producers.
I have found a company in Georgia that manufactures generators and alternators. The have a 50kw alt. that produces the proper voltage and wave form for grid use. It costs $1200 which is a good price for the heart of a power system. 50kw at wholesale price is worth about $1500 a month in my area.
Power amplifier, this one is a bit tricky it is sort of a perpetual system, I know perpetual motion\power is impossible. The system is basically this, a large motor plugged into the grid with its coils regulated to output rpm, turning an alt.alternator with its coils regulated to out put current. The alternator doesn't directly supply the motor as perpetual motion, it uses the grid as a battery bank, if the grid goes down so does it. So as i said it basically amplifies the grid power. Very basic, simple equipment, the only other hardware needed is a panel with the power company required conditioning and regulating equipment. Ive built a small one with a car alt a clothes dryer motor and a dozen car batteries, none of which were bought new for this, all stuff i had laying around and junkyard buys. Even being no where near efficient it manages enough juice to run our lights and a small fridge at our camp site. The real big idea i had to make it work was to put a go-kart clutch on the motor shaft\pulley. We charge the batteries with the truck and then switch the motor on and the clutch lets it come up to speed before it gets the load on it from the alt.
Small scale hydro power is cheap and efficient but not feasible because of the wet lands protection act, they don't like you building damns. Which Im for because they are bad for the river. I have come up with a design for what I call a bobber mill (fishing bobber) that has almost no impact on the river and doesn't violate the wetland act.
Its a raft built of a platform on top of empty 50 gallon plastic drum like a swimming raft. On top of that is a truck axle with a water wheel on each end using the drive shaft yoke to turn an alternator on a platform built above the axle and power transferred to shore by wires to the panel it can be anchored to the bottom with cables or i have been playing with the idea of it riding up and down on 2 poles sank into the bottom but either way its a boat not a structure, it floats so water level does not effect it as long as it doesn't bottom out. If the current is slow you could drive some galvanized water pipe into the bottom and use galv. sheet metal to build a weir to speed the water to the wheels.
The only problem this one has is how to stall the input to maintain a steady 1800 rpm at the alternator.
And last but by far not the least. The same company that manufactures the Alternators sells a tractor PTO gear box that converts the 540 rpm PTO to 1800rpm so this is as simple as hooking a tractor to it on a pad and letting it run. By using used fry grease to power the tractor it becomes very green and very very cheap. Restaurants pay to have their grease disposed of. Its not nearly as complicated as you would think either, to use veg grease in a diesel motor all you have to do is strain it threw a very fine strainer and heat it before it goes threw the fuel system. The way to do this is to get a large fuel oil drum and mount it laid on its side with the radiator from the tractor mounted inside it with some means of circulating the oil in the tank which could be a simple as a water pump from a car engine mounted on the side of the tank turned by a dryer motor or a tensioner and the belt put right around the the shaft coupler on the PTO. Use the tractors fuel tank to run it on fuel until the cooling system has warmed all the veg fuel then switch tanks. A little trick Ive seen used on trucks running on veg fuel is to install an oil filter in the fuel line and wrap it with a piece of copper tubing plugged into the cab heater lines right where the coolant is hottest coming out of the block. filters and reheats the fuel. Now that this is making 50kw you can use that to run more alternators off of that by electric motors and maybe generate 200-300kw. The original alt will be giving its extra to the grid so you can leave a margin for peak loads as well as being able to add the extra alternator sets one at a time as you can afford them.
If you have the know how and skills by all means, this is my Intellectual property, run with it, its free.
Full Version: My Ideas For Green Energy
I'd really like to see some math behind how you would actually do this. Theory versus practice. Just because the generator says one number, does not mean you're going to get anywhere near that. And getting 1800rpm off of a floating system sounds highly implausible.
I'll tell you right now you can't run much off of car batteries. You need deep-cycles batteries, which need their levels checked and can be a real pain. You won't be able to get away with anything galvanized in the long run. The zinc dip does wear off. It's called cathodic protection. You would have to use stainless 304 at the minimum.
I hope you can make your stuff work. I would suggest running the numbers and then doing test runs under controlled conditions.
I'll tell you right now you can't run much off of car batteries. You need deep-cycles batteries, which need their levels checked and can be a real pain. You won't be able to get away with anything galvanized in the long run. The zinc dip does wear off. It's called cathodic protection. You would have to use stainless 304 at the minimum.
I hope you can make your stuff work. I would suggest running the numbers and then doing test runs under controlled conditions.
Good ideas. There are some technical considerations, but over all, good ideas. I have worked in the construction industry and have observed some of the most innovative people are the ones that must find practical solutions to technical problems. The power companies (Southern Co.) will try any means to deny you the opportunity to sell your excess power. Federal law mandates they must, but they will try to bury you with specifications and forms to discourage any competitor, no matter how small. Net metering seems to be the way to go. The power co. must pay you retail for the excess power you generate. Somehow someone outside the main stream will eventually come up with a viable alternative. I believe we're spending our children and grand kids future for the sake of profit and comfort today. Keep up the good work and good luck w/the concepts. Let us know how it goes...
QUOTE (LaoTzu @ Feb 20 2010, 02:07 PM) 
I'd really like to see some math behind how you would actually do this. Theory versus practice. Just because the generator says one number, does not mean you're going to get anywhere near that. And getting 1800rpm off of a floating system sounds highly implausible.
I'll tell you right now you can't run much off of car batteries. You need deep-cycles batteries, which need their levels checked and can be a real pain. You won't be able to get away with anything galvanized in the long run. The zinc dip does wear off. It's called cathodic protection. You would have to use stainless 304 at the minimum.
I hope you can make your stuff work. I would suggest running the numbers and then doing test runs under controlled conditions.
I'll tell you right now you can't run much off of car batteries. You need deep-cycles batteries, which need their levels checked and can be a real pain. You won't be able to get away with anything galvanized in the long run. The zinc dip does wear off. It's called cathodic protection. You would have to use stainless 304 at the minimum.
I hope you can make your stuff work. I would suggest running the numbers and then doing test runs under controlled conditions.
Actually the camp site rig works pretty well as we have been using it for lights ( 8 sealed beam headlights) and a small 12v refrig for 3 years now. have to replace the batteries every year because of sitting over winter and the fact I just go down to a junkyard and pick up a batch that still have juice.
The alternator I refer to is an industrial unit meant to power a small town not some home brewed crap it is rated at 50kw @ 1800rpm. Here is a web site for this, Central Georgia Generators The unit I am looking at is an Alternator not a Gen and produces ac current since converting dc to ac at those levels gets expensive. They sell everything needed to produce and grid tie except the power source. If you would like to look at some home brew offerings i know some folks that make brake rotor alternators for windmills. brake rotor alternators
As for the comment about water power, are you kidding me, its what powered the industrial revolution and maybe 25% of the world runs on hydro power. as for it floating when anchored it will act just as any water wheel and you would be amazed how many rpms you can turn with an 8' dia wheel let alone 2 paired up and then geared threw an axle. 1800 rpm will be no problem stalling the wheels to hold 1800 rpm is what is the real issue. with the tractor or electric motors constant rpm is easy set the throttle or regulate coils. My idea is to over gear it at average flow and stall the wheels a bit to keep a steady speed. Galv water casing should be quite sufficient to pass code, Im quite sure the water at your house goes threw some somewhere in the system it is for potable water after all.
Im in the process of buying a piece of land zoned for farming so I can build the tractor rig and the amplifier. As for the bobbermill I plan to have one of the others up and running to build capital to use, as water front property is very expensive. Thinking about approaching the local university about some help with the bobbermill as i see that as the best of the lot.
Kahn I plan to stick it to the man by living on the site and hooking my own house into the system so I qualify for net metering.
I don't think you realize how most commercial hydroelectric plants work. I want you to put your money where you mouth is. I want you to tell me how fast the water needs to be moving in order to turn an eight inch diameter wheel at 1800 RPM.
I'll give you a hint. Just because you have two on the same shaft does not mean it will spin faster.
As an aside, most of North America doesn't run on twelve volts. You'll have to covert to 110 if you want to play the game. The power companies buy AC, not DC.
I'll give you a hint. Just because you have two on the same shaft does not mean it will spin faster.
As an aside, most of North America doesn't run on twelve volts. You'll have to covert to 110 if you want to play the game. The power companies buy AC, not DC.
I have designed and installed several solar/wind powered borehole pumps in very remote areas. We usually use one or more of these Dutch made inverters along with several deep cycle marine batteries. The inverter/charger can utilise multiple power sources coming in, including ac grid power of any voltage and quality, solar, wind, plus others.. They output pure sine 230v ac out (there is a US version at 110v). You can take 3 inverters and parallel them together to make a 3-phase output supply from DC or single phase ac inputs. You can also series connect several to make a higher power output. The batteries we use normally last around five years unattended and maintenance free so long as an intelligent charger is used.
The solar panels we use are manufactured in RSA by a company called Tenessa (a subsidiary of British Petroleum) and are military spec. They last indefinitely excluding lightning strikes. The wind turbines we use are by Kestrel, also high spec but capable of being air dropped. The cost of these borehole installations is absolutely astronomical (circa US$500,000 power generation materials only) but usually the UN is footing the bill. It would take a domestic consumer decades to pay itself back.
Exporting power is common practice in industry when some or all of their power comes from local generators to reduce their peak load grid requirements. If a plant has generators running but there are times when they don't need all the power being produced then the most cost effective option is to export the excess power into the grid and sell it to the power utility. If you run your generators on anything less than full load then their efficiency plummets, that's why it's better to keep generation at 100% regardless of the load requirements and export any spare energy not being used by plant process.
Local small scale domestic generation will cost many times what you would pay on your electricity bill for the same quantity of power. Converting any form of fossil fuel (including bio-diesel) into electricity is always inefficient and you'll end up with an ozone layer hole named after you.
Using solar panels to provide your hot water needs is very efficient however compared to a water cylinder with an electric heater. This is very viable for all domestic consumers in sunny areas with short payback times, low maintenance and low pollution.
Don't be put off by the advice of others, many great discoveries were made by people who were too confident and driven to realise that what they developed was supposed to be impossible. Have fun tinkering.
The solar panels we use are manufactured in RSA by a company called Tenessa (a subsidiary of British Petroleum) and are military spec. They last indefinitely excluding lightning strikes. The wind turbines we use are by Kestrel, also high spec but capable of being air dropped. The cost of these borehole installations is absolutely astronomical (circa US$500,000 power generation materials only) but usually the UN is footing the bill. It would take a domestic consumer decades to pay itself back.
Exporting power is common practice in industry when some or all of their power comes from local generators to reduce their peak load grid requirements. If a plant has generators running but there are times when they don't need all the power being produced then the most cost effective option is to export the excess power into the grid and sell it to the power utility. If you run your generators on anything less than full load then their efficiency plummets, that's why it's better to keep generation at 100% regardless of the load requirements and export any spare energy not being used by plant process.
Local small scale domestic generation will cost many times what you would pay on your electricity bill for the same quantity of power. Converting any form of fossil fuel (including bio-diesel) into electricity is always inefficient and you'll end up with an ozone layer hole named after you.
Using solar panels to provide your hot water needs is very efficient however compared to a water cylinder with an electric heater. This is very viable for all domestic consumers in sunny areas with short payback times, low maintenance and low pollution. Don't be put off by the advice of others, many great discoveries were made by people who were too confident and driven to realise that what they developed was supposed to be impossible. Have fun tinkering.
QUOTE (LaoTzu @ Feb 20 2010, 05:59 PM)
I don't think you realize how most commercial hydroelectric plants work. I want you to put your money where you mouth is. I want you to tell me how fast the water needs to be moving in order to turn an eight inch diameter wheel at 1800 RPM.
I'll give you a hint. Just because you have two on the same shaft does not mean it will spin faster.
As an aside, most of North America doesn't run on twelve volts. You'll have to covert to 110 if you want to play the game. The power companies buy AC, not DC.
I'll give you a hint. Just because you have two on the same shaft does not mean it will spin faster.
As an aside, most of North America doesn't run on twelve volts. You'll have to covert to 110 if you want to play the game. The power companies buy AC, not DC.
First you have to have a site so you can take measurements of flow rate and volume, that also is an 8 foot dia wheel which could change depending on on the requirements of the site. Threw gearing you could easily turn 200 rpm into a 1800.
2 wheels does not increase speed it increase power which means that you can manage a taller gear ratio with out loss of out put torque.
The voltage supplied to your meter is 240 not 110 which means that is the voltage you must produce to send back up the line. The only place i referenced dc was talking about our campsite genny which uses a car alternator which converts back to dc threw a rectifier in the alternator.
I think LoaTzu has put her (educated) finger on the real world problems Involved.
But, all credit to you, press on, who knows, big breakthroughs come from small beginnings...
But, all credit to you, press on, who knows, big breakthroughs come from small beginnings...
QUOTE (Badog @ Feb 20 2010, 06:52 PM)
Local small scale domestic generation will cost many times what you would pay on your electricity bill for the same quantity of power. Converting any form of fossil fuel (including bio-diesel) into electricity is always inefficient and you'll end up with an ozone layer hole named after you. Using solar panels to provide your hot water needs is very efficient however compared to a water cylinder with an electric heater. This is very viable for all domestic consumers in sunny areas with short payback times, low maintenance and low pollution.
Using solar panels to provide your hot water needs is very efficient however compared to a water cylinder with an electric heater. This is very viable for all domestic consumers in sunny areas with short payback times, low maintenance and low pollution.If you follow the link above to CGG you will see that a 50kw alternator cost $1200 U.S and bio-diesel is not a fossil fuel.
Well, considering you think you know everything, I'll leave you to it, even though you still haven't shown me any math. If you want to be nice, show me the calculations for your eight foot diameter wheel including the rate of flow and the gear ratio calculations. I will admit I read inches instead of feet, but your efficiency will be worse off using gear steps. I guess my Ph. D. in Mechanical Engineering means nothing even though I have designed hydroelectric turbine systems for a few projects. I have seen so much time and money wasted because people did not or could not do the math. It might work, but I wouldn't consider it cost efficient.
I'd also suggest you use the correct words before you call someone "uneducated."
Threw - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/threw
Through - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/through
And in my state, the electric company will accept 110, 220, 240, and 440 volts for net metering. For prolonged use for residential, car batteries won't work and everything has to be 110V at least. Being out in the boonies doesn't count.
Don't expect me to answer this again until you show me math.
I'd also suggest you use the correct words before you call someone "uneducated."
Threw - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/threw
Through - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/through
And in my state, the electric company will accept 110, 220, 240, and 440 volts for net metering. For prolonged use for residential, car batteries won't work and everything has to be 110V at least. Being out in the boonies doesn't count.
Don't expect me to answer this again until you show me math.
I will remind everyone to keep their posts free from comments about what they perceive other members' personalities to be, or there will be consequences (more than likely involving an alligator 
)
)
Apologies swollen-nose and LaoTzu. After a reread this morning I didn't like my own tone yesterday so have edited my comments. Lao, I mistook you for some one with nothing better to do than be trollish about something they didn't understand, instead of just posting links to the resources I took your post as a challenge to my competence. I freely admit my spelling and grammar are terrible, life long struggle and something I can get sore about so I decided to sleep on this.
The equation for determining the potential of a site is Head x Flow x Gravity = Watts.
Head is the measurement of the fall of the water from surface to surface. This is a low head high flow design which requires a site with a slight grade/fall but not white water. Say .2m which would then require a flow of 2500l/s to produce 50kw this Head and flow is possible in a small river in most hilly or mountainous areas.
To change the flow rate to speed of the water you have to know the width and depth at that exact spot and we need the speed to ultimately figure an exact wheel size and gearing from there. The considerations that must be taken at this point is a smaller wheel will have more speed but less torque as a larger wheel with the same width. The tricky part is we can only build a wheel so large because of the platform. Only so much of the wheel can be in the water so the larger the wheel the higher the platform. For stability this means the platform must become longer and wider. The width is set in stone by the length of the axle so increased width means out riggers which means more structure which means an increase in buoyancy which means an increase in length and width.
How I intend to cure that problem is 2 wheels that are smaller in dia and as wide as structurally possible. The added surface area of the width = an increase of work done by the same dia.
I gave 8' as a off the top number because it is slightly smaller than the 3m max I hope to stay within.
Wheel design is a key player as well. Paddle angles and sidewall design will seriously effect torque and RPM.
This is where the axles gear ratio comes but this is not a challenge because so wide a range of ring and pinion ratios are possible and cheaply purchased from a salvage yard or parts store. If you can not accomplish the final RPM needed here you can gear it further with a chain and sprocket system connecting the axle to the the alternator. my idea for that is motorcycle chain and having the large sprocket cut to match a smaller sprocket that i should be able to come up with from salvage.
My plan for all this is to find a site build a scale model to get it close and then build a full size rig with a system I'm working on to duplicate the load of the Alt for both models.
Now I know I have not proven it mathematically to you because I have yet to find a place that meets my requirements to get all the variables from, I never said this would work just any old place you have a trickle.
Building a sluice and using a turbine would be so much easier but it changes the banks and river which is what I'm trying not to do.
An other variable is the potential energy numbers above. That's the bare min I need at the lowest flow of the year. now the problem of the speed of the river comes into play and here is where I'm really stuck. I have to have that speed at the slowest time of year which means I have to either be able to change the gear ratio of the rig automatically as flow can change quickly or I have to over power it and stall the wheels so no matter how fast the flow I maintain 1800rpm. If I go threw the expense of some sort of sensing and gear box I loose efficiency which gets back into larger wheel size complicated design and me in the nut house. So I'm trying to design a stall converter that won't break under those pressures and have longevity.
I'm open to any suggestion here.
Now If this hasn't answered you please be more specific about which part you have questions about.
The equation for determining the potential of a site is Head x Flow x Gravity = Watts.
Head is the measurement of the fall of the water from surface to surface. This is a low head high flow design which requires a site with a slight grade/fall but not white water. Say .2m which would then require a flow of 2500l/s to produce 50kw this Head and flow is possible in a small river in most hilly or mountainous areas.
To change the flow rate to speed of the water you have to know the width and depth at that exact spot and we need the speed to ultimately figure an exact wheel size and gearing from there. The considerations that must be taken at this point is a smaller wheel will have more speed but less torque as a larger wheel with the same width. The tricky part is we can only build a wheel so large because of the platform. Only so much of the wheel can be in the water so the larger the wheel the higher the platform. For stability this means the platform must become longer and wider. The width is set in stone by the length of the axle so increased width means out riggers which means more structure which means an increase in buoyancy which means an increase in length and width.
How I intend to cure that problem is 2 wheels that are smaller in dia and as wide as structurally possible. The added surface area of the width = an increase of work done by the same dia.
I gave 8' as a off the top number because it is slightly smaller than the 3m max I hope to stay within.
Wheel design is a key player as well. Paddle angles and sidewall design will seriously effect torque and RPM.
This is where the axles gear ratio comes but this is not a challenge because so wide a range of ring and pinion ratios are possible and cheaply purchased from a salvage yard or parts store. If you can not accomplish the final RPM needed here you can gear it further with a chain and sprocket system connecting the axle to the the alternator. my idea for that is motorcycle chain and having the large sprocket cut to match a smaller sprocket that i should be able to come up with from salvage.
My plan for all this is to find a site build a scale model to get it close and then build a full size rig with a system I'm working on to duplicate the load of the Alt for both models.
Now I know I have not proven it mathematically to you because I have yet to find a place that meets my requirements to get all the variables from, I never said this would work just any old place you have a trickle.
Building a sluice and using a turbine would be so much easier but it changes the banks and river which is what I'm trying not to do.
An other variable is the potential energy numbers above. That's the bare min I need at the lowest flow of the year. now the problem of the speed of the river comes into play and here is where I'm really stuck. I have to have that speed at the slowest time of year which means I have to either be able to change the gear ratio of the rig automatically as flow can change quickly or I have to over power it and stall the wheels so no matter how fast the flow I maintain 1800rpm. If I go threw the expense of some sort of sensing and gear box I loose efficiency which gets back into larger wheel size complicated design and me in the nut house. So I'm trying to design a stall converter that won't break under those pressures and have longevity.
I'm open to any suggestion here.
Now If this hasn't answered you please be more specific about which part you have questions about.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 21 2010, 06:41 PM)
An other variable is the potential energy numbers above. That's the bare min I need at the lowest flow of the year. now the problem of the speed of the river comes into play and here is where I'm really stuck. I have to have that speed at the slowest time of year which means I have to either be able to change the gear ratio of the rig automatically as flow can change quickly or I have to over power it and stall the wheels so no matter how fast the flow I maintain 1800rpm. If I go threw the expense of some sort of sensing and gear box I loose efficiency which gets back into larger wheel size complicated design and me in the nut house. So I'm trying to design a stall converter that won't break under those pressures and have longevity.
I'm open to any suggestion here.
I'm open to any suggestion here.
With the type of generator you mentioned I would look at 13kW single phase 110v as being sufficient to power a domestic premises. If you build or retrofit the house with low energy consumption in mind (absorption refrigerator, CFL/LED lighting, evaporative cooler rather than AirCon, solar assisted water heater) you might even only need less than half this figure. I would size your generator accordingly and not with a view to making money by selling your excess power to the utility. This should make the logistics and construction more feasible and achievable.
With a self excited synchronous generator rotation speed will be absolutely critical. Rotation will affect the frequency of the voltage output even though within limits the voltage value will remain fairly constant. Varying frequency will destroy electronic appliances and will take its toll on any motors you are running. This will be your largest hurdle as far as I can see but I don't know a simple and accurate way to overcome the variations in RPM you'll inevitably get using a water wheel as your prime mover. Bear in mind if you gear up at a ratio of 50 : 1 you also amplify your water wheel RPM variations at this ratio as well so 1 rpm too slowat the wheel means 50 rpm too slow at the generator. I would certainly consider going with a six pole or even higher generator to reduce your final rotation speed requirements even though the frame size will increase and probably the purchase price as well.
I don't really want to get into in depth technical discussions on this forum, it's not fair on the mods who have to stay awake whilst they read these posts:-) but I'll have a dig through my pdf library during the coming week and see if I can find some literature that will point you in the right directions. If I can find some I'll pm you for a gmail addy.
Good luck.
nuts and bolts huh.
My need for it to pay is so i can commit my full time to it with resources. That said you pretty well hit the nail on the head.
And apologies to the mods I only ever posted this here because this is a community of, in my opinion, above average minds, where I could get different perspective and a desire to plant the seeds as far as I can. I hope some one here will put this to use and maybe some of my ideas might be what some one else is missing. you have to admit DS reaches the world. Maybe if a mod found the topic interesting and we behave we can find a balance. After all its the freedom of knowledge.
care to see where you can punch a few holes in the tractor idea other than still burning fuel being less than ideal. This is, in my opinion the best to start with but the one I want to pursue the least. Ive hit the point where Im convinced it will work which means Im missing something.
My need for it to pay is so i can commit my full time to it with resources. That said you pretty well hit the nail on the head.
And apologies to the mods I only ever posted this here because this is a community of, in my opinion, above average minds, where I could get different perspective and a desire to plant the seeds as far as I can. I hope some one here will put this to use and maybe some of my ideas might be what some one else is missing. you have to admit DS reaches the world. Maybe if a mod found the topic interesting and we behave we can find a balance. After all its the freedom of knowledge.
care to see where you can punch a few holes in the tractor idea other than still burning fuel being less than ideal. This is, in my opinion the best to start with but the one I want to pursue the least. Ive hit the point where Im convinced it will work which means Im missing something.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 01:16 AM)
My need for it to pay is so i can commit my full time to it with resources.
I would set your goal as producing sufficient power to go off grid. Small scale power generation is relatively too expensive to be profitable even with import/export power metering.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 01:16 AM)
care to see where you can punch a few holes in the tractor idea other than still burning fuel being less than ideal. This is, in my opinion the best to start with but the one I want to pursue the least. Ive hit the point where Im convinced it will work which means Im missing something.
The tractor driven generator is essentially the same as any diesel generator. I don't know the fuel consumption of your tractor so I'll guess at 3 gal/hr and it will need to be running probably 6-8 hrs each day minimum. 20+ Gallons a day consumption means it will need a lot of used restaurant oil or bio diesel. Add this to the set up costs and ongoing servicing costs and your power won't be cheap. This kinda setup is widely used for backup power during outages but it's usually too costly for a primary power solution. It may be financially viable if you're using uncut filtered cooking oil and your fuel is absolutely free but I don't know. In this case there's issues like polymerisation of the fuel in the tanks, injectors and pipes that causes unreliability and it coagulates in winter temperatures (palm oil and shortening might be solid in summer temps). Just to filter the fuel down to a couple of microns would be quite a task and then living with the noise is another thing.
I don't enjoy sounding like the harbinger of doom and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new and you have probably considered most, if not all of these elements. I'm basically thinking out loud but I would be interested to know what are your basic setup and running cost predictions for these systems?
I did say it was my least favorite, just the thought of handling all that grease. My idea for the filtering process is to put the lower chamber under vacuum to pull it threw a fine filter possibly the small filters for cheap backyard pools and a lower chamber built out of a pressure tank from a water well.
I live in a pleasantly southern climate. We only have a few nights here where the temps will dip low enough for the radiator in the fuel tank not to be enough, so that's pretty simple, a few propane salamanders and a tarp tied up to block the wind. The radiator and constant circulation in the fuel tank will hopefully solve most issues with the fuel and then using a large oil filter for a fuel filter/heater at the fuel rail should keep the injectors clear. there are trucks on the road using that tech, a guy in New York(not sure) was on national TV because he started a company that does the conversion and supplies the fuel seemed to be doing well. The diesel engine was originally designed to run on strait veg oil filtered as pure as possible so that farmers could grow their own fuel, when they involved the large manufacturers is when some one decided fuel oil would be a better choice ($$$)
The noise is a huge issue and why I have to look for Commercial III/Ag zoning. Been tossing around buying the equipment over this year and leasing a lot from a farm. resonators on the intake and heavily mufflered will help cut noise. A wall on the side toward any houses will help as well
Ive also been considering a small v6 engine converted to natural gas as the min horsepower for the alternator for a gas engine is 120. that's just a more expensive route.
The toss up between using a tractor or a mounted engine comes down to this, I will have to keep the small fuel tank on the tractor for start up and the frame to hold the gear box and alt could be made to attach to the 3 point hitch, this means its farm equipment not structure. Takes building permits and the county out of the mix. The added benefit is it increases reliability and if the worst happens you unhook one and drive an other on into place. Cheap tractors are in abundance here.
Fuel price will pretty well be my time driving around, and fuel. I live in a small city on the edge of a very large city. They treat fry grease like chemical waste, it costs to dispose of so i don't think it will be to hard to get names on contracts when I offer e few cents a gallon, a couple of larger chain stores and I should be right. Could buy it from waste management very cheap since they already charged for disposal. This is the one area that is win win.
Start up depends on the best deal I can pull on a very bare bones 75hp tractor, aiming for under $8K for the entire set up.
Operating cost is to hard to peg down with out actually doing it. since Im not borrowing any money i don't have to even hurt my head with it, start it up and monitor it very closely shutting it down to check plugs, injectors, filters ect and develop a schedule. Work intensive but strait forward, I have a lot of experience with equipment on job sites and what I figure to be more than my fair share of fixing a boom loader by flashlight (3x last month). Im pretty good with the hydraulics to. Hope to keep costs under $200 a month not counting break downs and fuel for the truck. if I lease from a farmer it bites into it a bit, I only need a 1/4 acre within 1500 feet from the road as that is as far as the power company will string a wire before they start charging by the foot.
Thats all i can think of ATM. Harbinger of doom? no! This is how you sure up a plan. Thanks Badog
P.S. whats your thought on methane from manure in place of LP.
I live in a pleasantly southern climate. We only have a few nights here where the temps will dip low enough for the radiator in the fuel tank not to be enough, so that's pretty simple, a few propane salamanders and a tarp tied up to block the wind. The radiator and constant circulation in the fuel tank will hopefully solve most issues with the fuel and then using a large oil filter for a fuel filter/heater at the fuel rail should keep the injectors clear. there are trucks on the road using that tech, a guy in New York(not sure) was on national TV because he started a company that does the conversion and supplies the fuel seemed to be doing well. The diesel engine was originally designed to run on strait veg oil filtered as pure as possible so that farmers could grow their own fuel, when they involved the large manufacturers is when some one decided fuel oil would be a better choice ($$$)
The noise is a huge issue and why I have to look for Commercial III/Ag zoning. Been tossing around buying the equipment over this year and leasing a lot from a farm. resonators on the intake and heavily mufflered will help cut noise. A wall on the side toward any houses will help as well
Ive also been considering a small v6 engine converted to natural gas as the min horsepower for the alternator for a gas engine is 120. that's just a more expensive route.
The toss up between using a tractor or a mounted engine comes down to this, I will have to keep the small fuel tank on the tractor for start up and the frame to hold the gear box and alt could be made to attach to the 3 point hitch, this means its farm equipment not structure. Takes building permits and the county out of the mix. The added benefit is it increases reliability and if the worst happens you unhook one and drive an other on into place. Cheap tractors are in abundance here.
Fuel price will pretty well be my time driving around, and fuel. I live in a small city on the edge of a very large city. They treat fry grease like chemical waste, it costs to dispose of so i don't think it will be to hard to get names on contracts when I offer e few cents a gallon, a couple of larger chain stores and I should be right. Could buy it from waste management very cheap since they already charged for disposal. This is the one area that is win win.
Start up depends on the best deal I can pull on a very bare bones 75hp tractor, aiming for under $8K for the entire set up.
Operating cost is to hard to peg down with out actually doing it. since Im not borrowing any money i don't have to even hurt my head with it, start it up and monitor it very closely shutting it down to check plugs, injectors, filters ect and develop a schedule. Work intensive but strait forward, I have a lot of experience with equipment on job sites and what I figure to be more than my fair share of fixing a boom loader by flashlight (3x last month). Im pretty good with the hydraulics to. Hope to keep costs under $200 a month not counting break downs and fuel for the truck. if I lease from a farmer it bites into it a bit, I only need a 1/4 acre within 1500 feet from the road as that is as far as the power company will string a wire before they start charging by the foot.
Thats all i can think of ATM. Harbinger of doom? no! This is how you sure up a plan. Thanks Badog
P.S. whats your thought on methane from manure in place of LP.
If you can collect and concentrate the methane and rig it with the proper fuel/air mixture it should work.
Sounds like you are starting up your own electric company, haha. Can we all get in at the base level?
When do we go "nukular"?
Sorry, being spazzy, like your ideas, keep em flowing.
How about buffet restaurant waste food composting/ biomass burning? Can use gasified kung pow for your pow pow
Sounds like you are starting up your own electric company, haha. Can we all get in at the base level?
When do we go "nukular"?
Sorry, being spazzy, like your ideas, keep em flowing.
How about buffet restaurant waste food composting/ biomass burning? Can use gasified kung pow for your pow pow
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 21 2010, 06:41 PM)
The equation for determining the potential of a site is Head x Flow x Gravity = Watts.
This formula or variations of it which factor in efficiency is used for estimations at Megawatt levels, I'm not sure how accurate it would be for small scale generation. I wouldn't use this formula as your criteria for deciding land suitability.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 04:15 AM)
The noise is a huge issue and why I have to look for Commercial III/Ag zoning. Been tossing around buying the equipment over this year and leasing a lot from a farm. resonators on the intake and heavily mufflered will help cut noise. A wall on the side toward any houses will help as well
Breakout noise attenuation will be required if there's dwellings close by. Probably build a complete 4 walled enclosure and some form of sonic lining internally.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 04:15 AM)
............Takes building permits and the county out of the mix.................
............They treat fry grease like chemical waste, it costs to dispose of so i don't think it will be to hard to get names on contracts when I offer e few cents a gallon, a couple of larger chain stores and I should be right. Could buy it from waste management very cheap since they already charged for disposal. This is the one area that is win win.
............They treat fry grease like chemical waste, it costs to dispose of so i don't think it will be to hard to get names on contracts when I offer e few cents a gallon, a couple of larger chain stores and I should be right. Could buy it from waste management very cheap since they already charged for disposal. This is the one area that is win win.
You're worried about needing a permit for a fixed engine but then you're toying with the idea of processing waste oil on a commercial scale. I'm pretty sure the permit issue is going to be a problem with this. Waste management companies are only allowed to offload any collected waste to other companies who are licensed recyclers, processors or disposal facilities. Same probably goes for restaurants in many areas.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 04:15 AM)
Start up depends on the best deal I can pull on a very bare bones 75hp tractor, aiming for under $8K for the entire set up.
I have to say that the generators you linked to above are incredibly cheap. Just be wary of the quality and make sure spares are available, at that price you may need them sooner than you think. US$8K is a very very small budget for a project of this nature.
You should scour the net for forums on this type of thing. It's a labour of love for many enthusiasts and they're usually eager to share their hard earned experience with a novice. The way to keep the price down is to learn from other peoples mistakes rather than your own.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 22 2010, 04:15 AM)
P.S. whats your thought on methane from manure in place of LP.
Are you being serious???
Maybe you should quiz Arkoma about some cheap chicken 
I came by that equation in a book on building small scale catchment turbines. I only posted in response to Lao wanting to see math. I have long since misplaced the book, but all my research since then has never turned up a better one. Speed is really what I need to know so when it comes time to start looking for a site I won't go threw the time of calculating flow, I will use common sense on whether the site has enough flow and just take a speed measurement with a bobber, tape measure and a stop watch.
I guess noise pollution is the least harmful, but will be the first thing neighbors complain about and am looking for some place that has none close by. Blue rigid insulation is a great dampener and pretty cheap.
Permits and zoning are the devil but life requires a devil for balance. Lucky for me I live in a red state where regulation is lax and start up costs for a small business are very low. Im from Michigan and my family has a large piece of land in the hill country near Traverse City that is ideal but i settled against starting there because of regulation and start up costs.
The start up cost I give are a projection of what I hope to keep the equipment costs down to, but coming out of pocket for everything gives me the freedom to guess low and deal with the extra expenses. I have the skills and tools to build alot of the equipment from salvage. 2 years of metal shop in high school a year of auto body and a year of metal fabrication in trade school, then I went to work in the family remodeling business and have 15 years in that trade. I have been green minded since my school days and have always choose to rebuild or build from salvage anything I can, only buying new when absolutely necessary.
To many of the people interested in green tech that you can find on the net are either hardcore greenies and dismiss a middle road or are in it for the pay day and won't share anything relevant because the hope to patent. My reasons for doing this are the hopes that what I build will be easy to duplicate and cheap enough that they can be built and operated in 3rd world countries where the need for clean energy is dire. also I just want to drum up interest in general and if I develop an easy solution and give it away it will be copied.
I guess noise pollution is the least harmful, but will be the first thing neighbors complain about and am looking for some place that has none close by. Blue rigid insulation is a great dampener and pretty cheap.
Permits and zoning are the devil but life requires a devil for balance. Lucky for me I live in a red state where regulation is lax and start up costs for a small business are very low. Im from Michigan and my family has a large piece of land in the hill country near Traverse City that is ideal but i settled against starting there because of regulation and start up costs.
The start up cost I give are a projection of what I hope to keep the equipment costs down to, but coming out of pocket for everything gives me the freedom to guess low and deal with the extra expenses. I have the skills and tools to build alot of the equipment from salvage. 2 years of metal shop in high school a year of auto body and a year of metal fabrication in trade school, then I went to work in the family remodeling business and have 15 years in that trade. I have been green minded since my school days and have always choose to rebuild or build from salvage anything I can, only buying new when absolutely necessary.
To many of the people interested in green tech that you can find on the net are either hardcore greenies and dismiss a middle road or are in it for the pay day and won't share anything relevant because the hope to patent. My reasons for doing this are the hopes that what I build will be easy to duplicate and cheap enough that they can be built and operated in 3rd world countries where the need for clean energy is dire. also I just want to drum up interest in general and if I develop an easy solution and give it away it will be copied.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 23 2010, 04:32 PM)
To many of the people interested in green tech that you can find on the net are either hardcore greenies and dismiss a middle road or are in it for the pay day and won't share anything relevant because the hope to patent.
I think you gave up too easily.
Link
Link
Link Excellent 'Layman's Guide' free pdf.
There tons more if you use Google. Happy reading.
QUOTE (Badog @ Feb 23 2010, 07:33 PM)
I think you gave up too easily.
Link
Link
Link Excellent 'Layman's Guide' free pdf.
There tons more if you use Google. Happy reading.
Link
Link
Link Excellent 'Layman's Guide' free pdf.
There tons more if you use Google. Happy reading.
Be glad we are on the net as it would look bad me giving you a great big kiss.
YOU JUST GAVE ME THE ANSWER.
How do you keep a steady speed when the input is variable, AIR, you make air pressure above what you need and regulate it to turn the alt and blow off what you don't need. They are chasing the idea of a floating mill as well. Oh Im referring to link # 2. I have been on Microhydro .net not in a few years, their site has come along way, the pdf should be very useful the only problem is they are focusing on catchment mills that damn the river or create sluices. Im striving for an environmentally neutral design.
Wildwaterpower.com. I need to chat with these folks. Ive heard of a spiral mill before but they were discussing bring up water and the flow they were managing wasn't impressive, years ago as well. Now he is managing all his gray water and 6kw with a paddle design he claims to be a dog.
Oh this year is going to be very exciting.
If I wasn't getting so old and fat I would turn a cartwheel right now.
THANK YOU BADOG.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 24 2010, 01:14 PM)
Be glad we are on the net as it would look bad me giving you a great big kiss.
Oh yeah, I'm glad we're on the net...very glad
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 24 2010, 01:14 PM)
How do you keep a steady speed when the input is variable, AIR, you make air pressure above what you need and regulate it to turn the alt and blow off what you don't need. They are chasing the idea of a floating mill as well. Oh Im referring to link # 2. I have been on Microhydro .net not in a few years, their site has come along way, the pdf should be very useful the only problem is they are focusing on catchment mills that damn the river or create sluices. Im striving for an environmentally neutral design.
The pdf I linked is fairly technical in nature probably above HND level in places, I didn't read it cover to cover but the theory will apply to any small scale hydro system even though it focuses on catchment. Rather use the formulas and rule of thumbs in there when assessing land suitability than the Head x Flow x Gravity = Watts. you mentioned earlier. It might also give Lao Tzu some of the math she was interested in above.
The links I gave were just the tip of the iceberg, if you scratch around long enough on Google you'll find material closer to your proposed hydro system.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 24 2010, 01:14 PM)
If I wasn't getting so old and fat I would turn a cartwheel right now.
THANK YOU BADOG.
THANK YOU BADOG.
The mental picture of the cartwheel is more than thanks enough.
Let me know how the project goes.
Badog to answer your questions from the other thread, I will have to use conditioning equipment to clean up the wave form and I think factor correction is a part of that. Basically I'm waiting to hear back from the State Consumer Advocate exactly what equipment I need specific to my set up. Cutting costs here is why I have decided to use an alternator that outputs the proper Voltage, Cycle, and Wave, hoping to only have to clean up the wave form.
The power amplifier is really a simple design. Pull power from the grid to run a 3 phase motor that in turn spins the alternator which supplies electricity back to the grid. Subtract what was used from what is made and there is your profit.
I have priced motors for this and they run between $900 used and $2800 new.
As for earlier concerns about lower priced gear, I am sourcing this stuff as much by distance as price. CGA is less than 100 miles from my house and the company I'm looking to buy the motor from is local, so parts, replacements and tech are close at hand. Could you imagine the freight costs on the alternator, I'm opting to drive over and pick it up.
The power amplifier is really a simple design. Pull power from the grid to run a 3 phase motor that in turn spins the alternator which supplies electricity back to the grid. Subtract what was used from what is made and there is your profit.
I have priced motors for this and they run between $900 used and $2800 new.
As for earlier concerns about lower priced gear, I am sourcing this stuff as much by distance as price. CGA is less than 100 miles from my house and the company I'm looking to buy the motor from is local, so parts, replacements and tech are close at hand. Could you imagine the freight costs on the alternator, I'm opting to drive over and pick it up.
Im not going to go into detail, but, the production of green energy using relatively slow moving water is, I'm afraid, a dead Duck in my opinion.
I'm talking usable amounts of electricity, ie: the amount used in real world homes, efficiently Insulated and using low energy...well, everything.
Secondly, any work on producing green energy, needs to be focused on the norm, that would be most people, those who don't live near running water.
Using chip fat etc as a power source, just isn't viable, its dirty old technology and if it were to be used widely, that throw away oil would soon have a value.
What I will tell you is this, someone I know very well, with no financial restrains and fabrication facilities, already has a property powered by green energy to 'real world' standards.
However, the installation and maintenance costs, mean It will never be financial viable.
Its much cheaper to get youre electricity from the national grid.
But it can make for an absorbing hobby, along with burning £50 notes for fun.
The technology we need isn't with us yet, but I'm sure its coming....
So, keep going.....Who knows?..
I'm talking usable amounts of electricity, ie: the amount used in real world homes, efficiently Insulated and using low energy...well, everything.
Secondly, any work on producing green energy, needs to be focused on the norm, that would be most people, those who don't live near running water.
Using chip fat etc as a power source, just isn't viable, its dirty old technology and if it were to be used widely, that throw away oil would soon have a value.
What I will tell you is this, someone I know very well, with no financial restrains and fabrication facilities, already has a property powered by green energy to 'real world' standards.
However, the installation and maintenance costs, mean It will never be financial viable.
Its much cheaper to get youre electricity from the national grid.
But it can make for an absorbing hobby, along with burning £50 notes for fun.
The technology we need isn't with us yet, but I'm sure its coming....
So, keep going.....Who knows?..
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 25 2010, 03:26 PM)
Badog to answer your questions from the other thread, I will have to use conditioning equipment to clean up the wave form and I think factor correction is a part of that. Basically I'm waiting to hear back from the State Consumer Advocate exactly what equipment I need specific to my set up. Cutting costs here is why I have decided to use an alternator that outputs the proper Voltage, Cycle, and Wave, hoping to only have to clean up the wave form.
Power factor is a problem created by the load or appliances you're powering, especially induction/squirrel cage motors and other inductive loads. It's not a problem with the power supply itself. To export power back to the grid you need to do more than just clean up the waveform. You need pure sine power, exactly 50Hz frequency (60Hz USA) exactly on voltage and free of harmonics. This is a tall order for a small scale operation. A supply from an 'alternator' driven by an asynchronous motor won't cut the mustard I'm afraid. You're going to need some fancy conditioning equipment on top of this.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 25 2010, 03:26 PM)
The power amplifier is really a simple design. Pull power from the grid to run a 3 phase motor that in turn spins the alternator which supplies electricity back to the grid. Subtract what was used from what is made and there is your profit.
I'm going to be honest here. I'm very skeptical about small scale power generation. Technically most of your ideas are feasible (ish) but financially I don't see them as being viable. I think at best you might break even with what your grid power would cost but I'm convinced you can't export power back to the utility and make a profit on such a small scale. The costs will just be too high.
The one system that won't work and can't work is this power amplifier as you have described it.
You want to use electricity to turn a motor to, in turn, turn an alternator that will in turn produce electricity. If the set up was 100% efficient you would get out exactly the same power that you put in. 100%efficient means no friction, no air drag on moving components, no heat produced by the motor or the alternator and no sound made by any of the components. Once you get off the drawing board and into the real world this isn't going to happen. There will always be losses which means you get out less power than you put in. It's really that simple.... Power out = Power in minus losses. Ergo power out will always be less the power in. I suggest that now you have a better idea about the nuts and bolts of the systems you're looking at, sit down and take a long hard look at the financial side of things before you dive in with both feet or your life's savings.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 25 2010, 03:26 PM)
Badog to answer your questions from the other thread, I will have to use conditioning equipment to clean up the wave form and I think factor correction is a part of that. Basically I'm waiting to hear back from the State Consumer Advocate exactly what equipment I need specific to my set up. Cutting costs here is why I have decided to use an alternator that outputs the proper Voltage, Cycle, and Wave, hoping to only have to clean up the wave form.
Power factor is a problem created by the load or appliances you're powering, especially induction/squirrel cage motors and other inductive loads. It's not a problem with the power supply itself. To export power back to the grid you need to do more than just clean up the waveform. You need pure sine power, exactly 50Hz frequency (60Hz USA) exactly on voltage and free of harmonics. This is a tall order for a small scale operation. A supply from an 'alternator' driven by an asynchronous motor won't cut the mustard I'm afraid. You're going to need some fancy conditioning equipment on top of this.
QUOTE (PH8AL @ Feb 25 2010, 03:26 PM)
The power amplifier is really a simple design. Pull power from the grid to run a 3 phase motor that in turn spins the alternator which supplies electricity back to the grid. Subtract what was used from what is made and there is your profit.
I'm going to be honest here. I'm very skeptical about small scale power generation. Technically most of your ideas are feasible (ish) but financially I don't see them as being viable. I think at best you might break even with what your grid power would cost but I'm convinced you can't export power back to the utility and make a profit on such a small scale. The costs will just be too high.
The one system that won't work and can't work is this power amplifier as you have described it.
You want to use electricity to turn a motor to, in turn, turn an alternator that will in turn produce electricity. If the set up was 100% efficient you would get out exactly the same power that you put in. 100%efficient means no friction, no air drag on moving components, no heat produced by the motor or the alternator and no sound made by any of the components. Once you get off the drawing board and into the real world this isn't going to happen. There will always be losses which means you get out less power than you put in. It's really that simple.... Power out = Power in minus losses. Ergo power out will always be less the power in. I suggest that now you have a better idea about the nuts and bolts of the systems you're looking at, sit down and take a long hard look at the financial side of things before you dive in with both feet or your life's savings.
I need to not post in a hurry I understand factor correction and it is an issue with the alt itself for the same reasons as an appliance, the alt is a reactive circuit the list it as having a power factor of 1. What i was getting at is the ready made panels you can buy take care of all the issues, I'm waiting for an answer back on exactly which brand and model I will have to use for my set up. The state and PC have a list of what they approve based on UL testing.
You are making the assumption that these alternators are cheap therefore producing dirty current, I have to argue that is not the case, if you look at its intended applications they are intended as a primary power source for ships, mining and small towns and back up power for large grid tied buildings. Dirty current just doesn't cut it. 50kwstc alt ok this link is broken even though I am looking at the page in an other tab, i'll try to figure out why but the info is availbe on the main CGA site linked to previously.
The power amplifier is a lot more sound of an idea when you take into account all of the real world variables.
The required horse power needed to run it is the first thing that is an issue. The data sheet for the alternator list it needs a 72hp diesel engine or 100hp gas engine. A Diesel motors rated hp will be at an rpm that is much higher than the range it would be in under normal use, if you were having to run it at max rpm it would not be efficient or live long. So what you have to determine is what the rpm of the diesel engine is and what hp that it is producing under that load. now you are closer to the size electric motor you need.
1hp=746w so a single phase motor of 75 hp would require 55950w to power ok so right there we are at a deficit of of almost 6kw but figure the diesel is only at .75 of its power rating(which I believe is laughably high still but for the sake .....) would put that power requirement right there at 41776w to run the motor ok so we are already ahead of the game. The loss of efficiency for the alternator was already figured in from the start, you buy an 1800 rpm motor and couple it directly to the alternator and you lose very little in between.
An other variable is the pto drive with a diesel tractor you have to consider the loss of power to the gear box, I'm going to low ball here and say 15%, or 10% for the required clutch if you were mounting the engine strait to the alt. So lets go with 10% here, that gets us down to 37598w of required power with a motor rated at 50.4 HP
Now comes the difference between 1 and 3 phase motors. It is widely excepted that the same motor 3phase will be .73 more powerful than the same in 1 phase. Not to mention I would never use a single phase because of other serious drawbacks over 3 phase.
Now we are down to a 37 hp motor only requiring 27447w
So the motor Im looking at is rated at 93% efficiency which means we lose 2.59 HP. well the closest motor conveniently available above 37hp is a 40 hp.
So 40HP motor = 29840w required power.
Now we have to consider the physical differences between a diesel engine and an electric motor. there are mechanical reasons why the required hp differ so much between a diesel and gas engines. The electric motor has much less mechanical resistance. What that difference in real world application is? Im having trouble finding a clear consensus.
Will these numbers hold true once I plug it in? Im betting quite a bit on it.
please point out any thing amiss that you see,
You are making the assumption that these alternators are cheap therefore producing dirty current, I have to argue that is not the case, if you look at its intended applications they are intended as a primary power source for ships, mining and small towns and back up power for large grid tied buildings. Dirty current just doesn't cut it. 50kwstc alt ok this link is broken even though I am looking at the page in an other tab, i'll try to figure out why but the info is availbe on the main CGA site linked to previously.
The power amplifier is a lot more sound of an idea when you take into account all of the real world variables.
The required horse power needed to run it is the first thing that is an issue. The data sheet for the alternator list it needs a 72hp diesel engine or 100hp gas engine. A Diesel motors rated hp will be at an rpm that is much higher than the range it would be in under normal use, if you were having to run it at max rpm it would not be efficient or live long. So what you have to determine is what the rpm of the diesel engine is and what hp that it is producing under that load. now you are closer to the size electric motor you need.
1hp=746w so a single phase motor of 75 hp would require 55950w to power ok so right there we are at a deficit of of almost 6kw but figure the diesel is only at .75 of its power rating(which I believe is laughably high still but for the sake .....) would put that power requirement right there at 41776w to run the motor ok so we are already ahead of the game. The loss of efficiency for the alternator was already figured in from the start, you buy an 1800 rpm motor and couple it directly to the alternator and you lose very little in between.
An other variable is the pto drive with a diesel tractor you have to consider the loss of power to the gear box, I'm going to low ball here and say 15%, or 10% for the required clutch if you were mounting the engine strait to the alt. So lets go with 10% here, that gets us down to 37598w of required power with a motor rated at 50.4 HP
Now comes the difference between 1 and 3 phase motors. It is widely excepted that the same motor 3phase will be .73 more powerful than the same in 1 phase. Not to mention I would never use a single phase because of other serious drawbacks over 3 phase.
Now we are down to a 37 hp motor only requiring 27447w
So the motor Im looking at is rated at 93% efficiency which means we lose 2.59 HP. well the closest motor conveniently available above 37hp is a 40 hp.
So 40HP motor = 29840w required power.
Now we have to consider the physical differences between a diesel engine and an electric motor. there are mechanical reasons why the required hp differ so much between a diesel and gas engines. The electric motor has much less mechanical resistance. What that difference in real world application is? Im having trouble finding a clear consensus.
Will these numbers hold true once I plug it in? Im betting quite a bit on it.
please point out any thing amiss that you see,
Ph8al I thought you might find this interesting.
QUOTE (Loki154 @ Mar 1 2010, 05:25 PM)
Ph8al I thought you might find this interesting.
This is a link from this page, ‘Underwater Wind Turbine’
There are alot of these ideas around for submersible generators. Here is a show I watched on hulu this morning ***MOD EDIT*** . I believe they are going to be key players, If you can afford one.
They have their draw backs, the obvious problem with the back pack model is out put, Im interested to see when they start producing house sized models.
The problem with the large submersibles is not just the material costs but placement requires barges, cranes and divers. To service or repair you have to bring it to the surface. If the generator is in the submersible that adds the problem of flooding if a seal rots out or is not properly installed.
If you have the generator above the water you have the issue of transferring the energy to the surface and then the generator has to have some sort of tower to sit on.
Glad to see that the big guys are starting to take interest in green hydro power.
how about we build giant hamster wheels...........bare with me.....................................
and make everybody do at least 20 mins a day perhaps it could help people in their cardio fitness(kinda a joke but it wouldnt hurt)
and make everybody do at least 20 mins a day perhaps it could help people in their cardio fitness(kinda a joke but it wouldnt hurt)
I've followed this thread with some interest, and some quite good ideas have been mooted. However, it is all very small scale stuff, and fine if you can find yourself a handy plot of land next to a fast flowing stream. But what about if you live in an apartment in central New York? Mini hydro-electric generators and tractors running on old cooking fat are not really an option.
The fact is that we need energy to power our society.
Lots of it.
Without energy, society as we know it will implode.
And as Badog has pointed out, small scale energy production is inherently inefficient. We need to be looking at the larger picture, and pretty urgently. I'm not sure what the situation is in the US, but in UK, the politicians are seemingly unaware of the impending catasrophe that is just around the corner, in the shape of insufficient energy supplies.
They spend their time on "I'm greener than you" posturing, allocating ridiculous amounts of taxpayers money to useless "green" energy projects (wind farms, for instance), and meanwhile are hellbent on closing down all the coal-fired power stations because a bunch of eco-warriors brandishing dodgy science have convinced them that AGW is a reality, rather than the (much disputed) theory that it is.
I read today a comment on an article by a Dr. Phillip Bratby, who is an expert in the field. (Here is an interesting paper he wrote at the request of the House of Lords on the economics of renewable energy. Unfortunately, he wasn't singing from the same hymn sheet as the AGW lobby, so the report was buried).
His comment was again on the subject of the impending energy crisis.
This guy is not some crackpot "denier", he is one of the leaders in the field of energy supply on a national scale.
So much as I think your efforts are laudable PH8AL, what you are trying to achieve, even if successful, will only impact on a very small number of people, and will bring us no closer to solving the global energy conundrum, which is how to provide cheap and plentiful energy without polluting (I'm not talking CO2 here - I think all that AGW stuff is BS) the planet and without expending all our natural resources.
The man who solves that problem will find his place in history.
The fact is that we need energy to power our society.
Lots of it.
Without energy, society as we know it will implode.
And as Badog has pointed out, small scale energy production is inherently inefficient. We need to be looking at the larger picture, and pretty urgently. I'm not sure what the situation is in the US, but in UK, the politicians are seemingly unaware of the impending catasrophe that is just around the corner, in the shape of insufficient energy supplies.
They spend their time on "I'm greener than you" posturing, allocating ridiculous amounts of taxpayers money to useless "green" energy projects (wind farms, for instance), and meanwhile are hellbent on closing down all the coal-fired power stations because a bunch of eco-warriors brandishing dodgy science have convinced them that AGW is a reality, rather than the (much disputed) theory that it is.
I read today a comment on an article by a Dr. Phillip Bratby, who is an expert in the field. (Here is an interesting paper he wrote at the request of the House of Lords on the economics of renewable energy. Unfortunately, he wasn't singing from the same hymn sheet as the AGW lobby, so the report was buried).
His comment was again on the subject of the impending energy crisis.
QUOTE
It's not quite too late to get round the problems:
Step 1: Ignore the EU LCPD directive and keep the plants running.
Step 2: Ignore all the EU renewable energy targets and stop subsidising and building ineffective wind turbines and other ineffective renewable energy schemes.
Step 3: Stop funding all climate change science and all the other QUANGOS etc that consume vast quantities of climate-related money without achieving anything useful.
Step 4: Use the money saved from steps 2 & 3 to start building new coal-fired power stations, re-opening coal mines, getting on with constructing new nuclear power stations and starting the construction of gas-storage facilities.
Step 5: Increase investment in nuclear fusion research.
Chances of any or all of steps 1 to 5 occurring: Zero
Hence future of UK: Very bleak; at least the last person to leave won't have to bother with putting out the lights; our politicians will have already done that.
Step 1: Ignore the EU LCPD directive and keep the plants running.
Step 2: Ignore all the EU renewable energy targets and stop subsidising and building ineffective wind turbines and other ineffective renewable energy schemes.
Step 3: Stop funding all climate change science and all the other QUANGOS etc that consume vast quantities of climate-related money without achieving anything useful.
Step 4: Use the money saved from steps 2 & 3 to start building new coal-fired power stations, re-opening coal mines, getting on with constructing new nuclear power stations and starting the construction of gas-storage facilities.
Step 5: Increase investment in nuclear fusion research.
Chances of any or all of steps 1 to 5 occurring: Zero
Hence future of UK: Very bleak; at least the last person to leave won't have to bother with putting out the lights; our politicians will have already done that.
This guy is not some crackpot "denier", he is one of the leaders in the field of energy supply on a national scale.
So much as I think your efforts are laudable PH8AL, what you are trying to achieve, even if successful, will only impact on a very small number of people, and will bring us no closer to solving the global energy conundrum, which is how to provide cheap and plentiful energy without polluting (I'm not talking CO2 here - I think all that AGW stuff is BS) the planet and without expending all our natural resources.
The man who solves that problem will find his place in history.
I like your Idea about the generator it sounds pretty good i might take some of your ideals and try to build one myself
QUOTE (wolf_40 @ Jun 18 2010, 02:00 PM)
I like your Idea about the generator it sounds pretty good i might take some of your ideals and try to build one myself
By all means please do, Im not trying to patent any of my ideas, it has always been my intent to share them freely.nisakiman I agree with you that some thing needs to be done large scale my efforts are more toward the do it yourselfers. I may not change the world but I will settle for taking my self off the grid so I am no longer part of the problem, and sharing this so others can to.
thanks if i have any questions can i give you a shoot
QUOTE (wolf_40 @ Jun 18 2010, 11:04 PM)
thanks if i have any questions can i give you a shoot
Certainly. How ever I can help.
QUOTE
I like your Idea about the generator it sounds pretty good i might take some of your ideals and try to build one myself
I take it you mean the power amplifier (call it what ever thats just what I call it) that is basically enlarging how I got some one else's ideas to work. There are several different small scale versions already built some using batteries and others with solar panels or small water wheels. My real innovation there is the use of a snow mobile clutch to allow a smaller electrical motor to be used. When an electrical motor comes on it is at full torque and if the load is to much it will just "seize" up. This means you have to have a motor that is more powerful just for start up. My thinking is if you use a weighted pulley on the motor and the clutch it lets the motor come almost up to speed before the load is applied and the momentum of the weighted wheel will be enough to do the work of spinning up the alternator.
You may even want to build a small truck alternator version first. Pretty strait forward, use a large GM truck alternator(newer than 1995) hooked to a bank of batteries and a 12>110v inverter that you can buy at any truck stop and a 110v 1/2hp electric motor. Optimal rpm for the truck alt is about 4000, look on the motor at its regulated rpm and thats how you get the pulley size for the motor. Good place to look for the motor is one of those stacked washer and dryer units meant for an apartment, they are usually 110v, get one that has a good energystar rating, more juice you can use instead of the system. If you want to spend a bit more money you can find very high output GM alternators meant for boats, they are just converted truck alts. Here is a link to one that puts out 350 amps at 12v, that's a lot of juice. h/o alt lower output ones are also available.
The reason I recommend this one is they have cured the biggest problem with H/O alternators which is short rectifier life. The price is steep at $500 but that is a lot of power.
The wiring is very simple, the alt is internally regulated and rectified (why I suggest the GM), daisy chain the batteries hook the alt to one end the inverter to the other, plug the motor into the inverter with a wall plug. Put cut off switches between each component and your good. You can pull your juice strait of the inverter.
Charge the battery bank with a cycle charger or jump start it with a truck. All the field regulating is done internally by the motor and alt so changes in load shouldn't effect it to much as long as you don't overload it, all inverters have a circuit breaker built in just in case you do. do some junkyard scrounging and prolly build it for under $200.
Well M8 hate to put a bummer on your system but It's not efficient at all, only going on your above post, Now the above alternator has to generate 5KW as it does not reg at 12V but has to be 14.1V and that is just under 5KW. Now vehicle alternators are only about 80% efficient and then you charge the batteries and you have internal losses, then you put it through one of the power inverters to 110v or 240v and that is only 80% efficient as well so you've lost 40% already and that 1/2 HP motor has to be a 7HP motor and it only runs at 1440 RPM so now you have to gear it up to 4000RPM so a gear box is involved and that is mechanical so will give it 50% efficiency, sooooooooo now that motor has to be ~ 10.5 HP. The end result is M8 it don't work out. 
Now a little history on what I've been doing on Green Power.
1: Have looked at alot over the last 5 yrs
2: Have had a play with them.
3: Have tried solar "and have 1KW on roof of house and supplies to the Grid."
4: Am still working on Wind generation. "having fun"
5: If you SUCK from the GRID to save by Regeneration YOU ARE JUST FOOLING YOURSELF because what you put in you don't get out. LAWS of PHYSICS in the system above you lost 90% so what do you gain.
NOTHING.
Now that have put your feet on the ground
If you are interested on playing with green power is Guy is the most active about it" all the others have just not posted any more or are not interested " now this guy is an Ozie and he is having fun doing his hobby and being Green and adding to his web site. http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp
so have fun and see if you can do something towards it I am.
MAGs
Now a little history on what I've been doing on Green Power.
1: Have looked at alot over the last 5 yrs
2: Have had a play with them.
3: Have tried solar "and have 1KW on roof of house and supplies to the Grid."
4: Am still working on Wind generation. "having fun"
5: If you SUCK from the GRID to save by Regeneration YOU ARE JUST FOOLING YOURSELF because what you put in you don't get out. LAWS of PHYSICS in the system above you lost 90% so what do you gain.
NOTHING.
Now that have put your feet on the ground
If you are interested on playing with green power is Guy is the most active about it" all the others have just not posted any more or are not interested " now this guy is an Ozie and he is having fun doing his hobby and being Green and adding to his web site. http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.aspso have fun and see if you can do something towards it I am.
MAGs
The point is to build a scale model that issues can be worked out on cheaper than building the full size rig.
There are several things you have not considered and some penalties you placed on it that are steep such as 50%
loss for a gear box I would never use. It's the pulley system that they are intended for and the loss is already figured into their efficiency rating. The only additional loss is friction from the belt and from an idler pulley that will be a slip clutch both are nominal.
All of the efficiency ratings you gave are low. My inverter in my truck is rated at 95.5%.
I'm getting on paper a usable output of 30%, terrific, no, but worth trying, yes. My first attempt would run some small 12v items. Lights or a mini fridge. I never shot video of it working so only have my word as what would a still photo show, an alt and motor bolted to a 6x6 and some batteries.
I was just giving an overview of the concept so I didn't bother with info like truck alts actually making 14.4 because it leads off into that you can actually play with the regulation of the alt and get it up to 15.5v safely and just wasn't needed.
We have been cash strapped saving to buy a house closer to our work and in a better school district, we close around the 15 of next month. I have been scrounging up some things, and will start working on this as soon as we are settled.
I have a link for you as well to do with wind power http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html
Alt. built from brake rotors.
That back shed link is interesting thanks.
Also worth noting I have been talking to a local farmer about working together to build the bio-fuel tractor mill, he has a Ford 9N and a location. I won't have my end together until spring unless I get lucky.
There are several things you have not considered and some penalties you placed on it that are steep such as 50%
loss for a gear box I would never use. It's the pulley system that they are intended for and the loss is already figured into their efficiency rating. The only additional loss is friction from the belt and from an idler pulley that will be a slip clutch both are nominal.
All of the efficiency ratings you gave are low. My inverter in my truck is rated at 95.5%.
I'm getting on paper a usable output of 30%, terrific, no, but worth trying, yes. My first attempt would run some small 12v items. Lights or a mini fridge. I never shot video of it working so only have my word as what would a still photo show, an alt and motor bolted to a 6x6 and some batteries.
I was just giving an overview of the concept so I didn't bother with info like truck alts actually making 14.4 because it leads off into that you can actually play with the regulation of the alt and get it up to 15.5v safely and just wasn't needed.
We have been cash strapped saving to buy a house closer to our work and in a better school district, we close around the 15 of next month. I have been scrounging up some things, and will start working on this as soon as we are settled.
I have a link for you as well to do with wind power http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html
Alt. built from brake rotors.
That back shed link is interesting thanks.
Also worth noting I have been talking to a local farmer about working together to build the bio-fuel tractor mill, he has a Ford 9N and a location. I won't have my end together until spring unless I get lucky.
Have been to that site long time ago and there doesn't seem to be any updates on them.
Click to view attachment
This one is small and am working on only getting up to 5A
I do have a bigger one of around 500W but haven't put it up yet been to busy and have to make blades yet. "One day"
Click to view attachment
This one is small and am working on only getting up to 5A
I do have a bigger one of around 500W but haven't put it up yet been to busy and have to make blades yet. "One day"
nisakiman Wind generator farm are not Useless really the only pollution they create is visual and then ppl complain anyway "would you prefer wind farms or a hole pile of Transmission lines in your view."
Ya just can't make every body happy. I'd prefer wind farms over transmission line any day.
Solar farms are very expensive but are Quiet but only work for 50% of the 24 hr day. well you do need the sun.
But the wind seems to blow day and night but not where I live ' at this moment and most of the day no breeze' no wonder am not in a hurry to put the bigger unit up huh.
Well more food for thought.
Ya just can't make every body happy. I'd prefer wind farms over transmission line any day.
Solar farms are very expensive but are Quiet but only work for 50% of the 24 hr day. well you do need the sun.
But the wind seems to blow day and night but not where I live ' at this moment and most of the day no breeze' no wonder am not in a hurry to put the bigger unit up huh.
Well more food for thought.
I think windmills are pretty. As far as being an eyesore It completely escapes my why people don't paint them light blue. Or rig them with diode lights that blink in a sequence to display a picture at night. Could be I am to into steampunk, machines can be art.
I was just watching a show on solar farms and they might have cracked the problem of what to do when the sun goes down. They are experimenting with a sodium mixture that has a low melting and high boiling temps to use as a heat sink material that they can steadily draw from overnight and keep the power flowing. I have a lot of hope for the new trough mirror arrays. Its much cheaper and efficient than a tower design. The show unfortunately is on Hulu so I can't link to it.
Mags
Very impressed with the home brewed alternator, for the folks reading who might not understand the accomplishment, that is a hand built alternator and they are not the easiest thing to build right. Mags deserves major props for that.(yes pun intended)
Speaking of props, what are you thinking about with the blade design for your bigger mill. Im not a fan of the heavy wood blades alot of people use, If you are interested in composites I have some links for cheap Kevlar cloth and resin and quite a few more on laying cloth. Every ounce of weight the wind doesn't have to turn is potential energy. The other advantage besides weight is by building a mold and making all your blades from it, you get a much higher degree of uniformity over what even the best carpenter can do with wood. Laying cloth is mind numbingly easy as well.
Something I noticed in the pic, love the lil jars of nuts n bolts, DIY credo "never throw anything away". I have mine hanging by the lids under my shelf above my bench. Plastic peanut butter jars with the lids epoxied to the shelf above. Keeps them organized and out of the way but right at eye level so I can quickly find what Im looking for. I used epoxy cause I mixed a batch then further broke what I was trying to fix so instead of wasting it I thought well what to do with this. A couple of small screws work to.
I was just watching a show on solar farms and they might have cracked the problem of what to do when the sun goes down. They are experimenting with a sodium mixture that has a low melting and high boiling temps to use as a heat sink material that they can steadily draw from overnight and keep the power flowing. I have a lot of hope for the new trough mirror arrays. Its much cheaper and efficient than a tower design. The show unfortunately is on Hulu so I can't link to it.
Mags
Very impressed with the home brewed alternator, for the folks reading who might not understand the accomplishment, that is a hand built alternator and they are not the easiest thing to build right. Mags deserves major props for that.(yes pun intended)
Speaking of props, what are you thinking about with the blade design for your bigger mill. Im not a fan of the heavy wood blades alot of people use, If you are interested in composites I have some links for cheap Kevlar cloth and resin and quite a few more on laying cloth. Every ounce of weight the wind doesn't have to turn is potential energy. The other advantage besides weight is by building a mold and making all your blades from it, you get a much higher degree of uniformity over what even the best carpenter can do with wood. Laying cloth is mind numbingly easy as well.
Something I noticed in the pic, love the lil jars of nuts n bolts, DIY credo "never throw anything away". I have mine hanging by the lids under my shelf above my bench. Plastic peanut butter jars with the lids epoxied to the shelf above. Keeps them organized and out of the way but right at eye level so I can quickly find what Im looking for. I used epoxy cause I mixed a batch then further broke what I was trying to fix so instead of wasting it I thought well what to do with this. A couple of small screws work to.
I have my jars hanging as well and top of the shelf has them sitting on it .
Blades well not wooden to much work for me. Was thinking of just PVC ones for now in that site of mine a member has cut them from PVC pipe looked easy and will do for the experiment. Also from my local electronic store Jaycar they sell Chinese made turbines and you can buy blades separate pretty cheap too.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.as...&SUBMIT.y=5
The Magnets are from Magnetrons but will be getting some Rare Earth ones from Jaycar am trying to do this unit cheap from local supplies.
Have you been to this site: http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/vawt.htm
Blades well not wooden to much work for me. Was thinking of just PVC ones for now in that site of mine a member has cut them from PVC pipe looked easy and will do for the experiment. Also from my local electronic store Jaycar they sell Chinese made turbines and you can buy blades separate pretty cheap too.
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.as...&SUBMIT.y=5
The Magnets are from Magnetrons
but will be getting some Rare Earth ones from Jaycar am trying to do this unit cheap from local supplies.Have you been to this site: http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/vawt.htm
Mags Jaycar is way better than any neighborhood store we have here. I would definitely go with their blades.
A word of warning on the Chinese made gen, when I was checking the regulations I came across an article saying many of them do note pass code for either tied or untied systems. Local committees are using this to block permits.
Hopefully this isn't the case in the U.K.
Wind Stuff Now is very interesting, thanks. I have been digging to find more information on his build of the GM alternator. Using aluminum for the rotor body with a strip of steel epoxied around it to hold the magnets is a very good idea. Look at the simplicity of it and I would say just about any one that took metal shop would be able to make that on a lathe.
He is letting his voltage run away but if my math is correct that at 1500rpm regulated to 14.4v he would be making 102 amps. On his chart you can see that both volts and amp increase at a steady pace over rpm, 3000 rpm and you have 204 amps at 14.4v that is 2937.6w. The heavy duty bridged rectifier and external regulator are both available from the company that sells the high output GM alt I linked to before. Even at 1500rpm that is making higher amps than the stock alt was making at peak which for most of those old style alts from the 60-70s was a between 60-90amp. Using the newer heavier built GM alt would be a better choice and since you are gutting it you could get a dead core from the junkyard for cheap.
I also love his work around for switching his home built alt from a star to delta wiring. That could be very useful.
A word of warning on the Chinese made gen, when I was checking the regulations I came across an article saying many of them do note pass code for either tied or untied systems. Local committees are using this to block permits.
Hopefully this isn't the case in the U.K.
Wind Stuff Now is very interesting, thanks. I have been digging to find more information on his build of the GM alternator. Using aluminum for the rotor body with a strip of steel epoxied around it to hold the magnets is a very good idea. Look at the simplicity of it and I would say just about any one that took metal shop would be able to make that on a lathe.
He is letting his voltage run away but if my math is correct that at 1500rpm regulated to 14.4v he would be making 102 amps. On his chart you can see that both volts and amp increase at a steady pace over rpm, 3000 rpm and you have 204 amps at 14.4v that is 2937.6w. The heavy duty bridged rectifier and external regulator are both available from the company that sells the high output GM alt I linked to before. Even at 1500rpm that is making higher amps than the stock alt was making at peak which for most of those old style alts from the 60-70s was a between 60-90amp. Using the newer heavier built GM alt would be a better choice and since you are gutting it you could get a dead core from the junkyard for cheap.
I also love his work around for switching his home built alt from a star to delta wiring. That could be very useful.
My M8 LP around the corner from me just got a 300W wind turbine del Yesterday and he bought 4 x 450AH Batteries as well, so he finally got the bug after me talking about it so much that he will have his in the air before I say "smarty pants"anyway he's bought his stuff I'm making it now said to him, he now needs an Grid Approved Inverter, couple of grand since he spent about $600 AU on turbine and $700 AU on Batteries whats a couple more 
I bought some Rare Earth Magnets the other day to try but they only had 4 and I need 6 "Am going off prospecting on the 10th so will play with my geny when I get back, But also back to school TAFE to do some formal studies in IT to bolt what I know down on paper"
I bought some Rare Earth Magnets the other day to try but they only had 4 and I need 6 "Am going off prospecting on the 10th so will play with my geny when I get back, But also back to school TAFE to do some formal studies in IT to bolt what I know down on paper"
Any more ideas PH8AL has been awhile? or projects on the way.?
My uncle has a project going that Im helping to figure out all the parts for. His house was built with baseboard radiant heat and a propane boiler. He wanted to switch to a pellet boiler, he found one that would burn corn cobs and cherry pits as well, it was used but in very good shape. He thought it looked plenty big enough and here is where his trouble started its to big, once he got it in it pops the relief valve on the lowest burn setting, later research shows it would heat a house 3 times the size. He got by last winter by running an open loop to the screen porch but heating that is not economical so he wants to use it to make electricity. Figures if its cheaper to do than buying an other boiler, why not?
Just started with it, unfortunately there are no steampowerRus stores.
That link you gave to the guy that builds his own h/o alternators from GM cores has me thinking about fixing an old lathe I have in storage. That ties right in with what I know I will be doing for several days/weeks, setting up my shop after we move. Barely enough room to turn around in the present one, that's with a lot of stuff in my storage unit.
Just started with it, unfortunately there are no steampowerRus stores.
That link you gave to the guy that builds his own h/o alternators from GM cores has me thinking about fixing an old lathe I have in storage. That ties right in with what I know I will be doing for several days/weeks, setting up my shop after we move. Barely enough room to turn around in the present one, that's with a lot of stuff in my storage unit.
This topic has been great, thanks.
I'm into amateur small-scale DIY energy solutions (in Aus) and though I see the potential of upscaling, I do not see why humanity shouldn't live more efficiently with localised, apt and diverse sustainable power sources.
Often for free you can simply scrounge material for a windmill, watermill and even old half working solar panels and batteries.
On selling back to the grid, a German bloke recently moved to our village and ordered AU$50k's worth of solar panels (can't recall how many kW - will ask) from Germany.
Seems expensive, but he doesn't need to use the energy he captures as he has an efficient house-design, a pot-boiler and a gas fridge.
Plus a couple of compact fluoros for night and (what else do you really need?) he sells his power back to the grid for $12,500 a year (which will rise with energy costs by the year).
4 yr complete return investment and then enough energy to power the whole village if he wished to (or In An Emergency).
To the physicists, power through a single process might be limited in efficiency, but when combining multiple processes and feeding rich-waste from one process as fuel that is efficiently captured by another process or design - the numbers can add up in your favour.
The half life of cheap magnets might be a problem, but there's many ways to alter an electro/magnetic/chemical state.
Electrolysis of water seems infinitely simple and saves the need for storing a tank of hydrogen in situ.
China got over part of the drag-efficiency issue with a wind-turbine that is magnetically repelled from the ground and hovers/spins freely in the wind.
Nice, it's so sci-fi, but so zen.
Controlled gasification produces an amazingly efficient heat source if burned (or if captured, biogas) and can heat a drum of water which can then heat a brick-enclosed portion of your house all night.
I also think the anaerobic-fermentation gas you can harvest from a closed-composter would be the ideal input for a generator and for gas burners.
I salivate when I think of all humanity's and nature's waste products we could be utilising, denaturing whilst supporting ecological processes that renew these potential fuels.
The flipside of energy is it can be used as a tool of violence, it's unequal distribution is what maintains social strata, personal use is generally extremely self-interested and what we harvest from the environment always strips some organism of it's ecological niche.
Apparently the drop in pressure caused by large wind turbines causes bats to die instantly (something about dilated blood or air vessels) and the turbine's continuous sound has killed off whole herds of goats.
Smaller scale might be able to avoid this, but all the R&D goes into the profiteering large-scale plants and not into efficient designs for the budding DIY'er or even environmental impact minimalisation.
Nice to see the importance of a free-flowing uninhibited watershed is not lost on the original poster, PH8AL.
(Free, fresh, local fish is an integral part of any efficient lifestyle design)
I'm into amateur small-scale DIY energy solutions (in Aus) and though I see the potential of upscaling, I do not see why humanity shouldn't live more efficiently with localised, apt and diverse sustainable power sources.
Often for free you can simply scrounge material for a windmill, watermill and even old half working solar panels and batteries.
On selling back to the grid, a German bloke recently moved to our village and ordered AU$50k's worth of solar panels (can't recall how many kW - will ask) from Germany.
Seems expensive, but he doesn't need to use the energy he captures as he has an efficient house-design, a pot-boiler and a gas fridge.
Plus a couple of compact fluoros for night and (what else do you really need?) he sells his power back to the grid for $12,500 a year (which will rise with energy costs by the year).
4 yr complete return investment and then enough energy to power the whole village if he wished to (or In An Emergency).
To the physicists, power through a single process might be limited in efficiency, but when combining multiple processes and feeding rich-waste from one process as fuel that is efficiently captured by another process or design - the numbers can add up in your favour.
The half life of cheap magnets might be a problem, but there's many ways to alter an electro/magnetic/chemical state.
Electrolysis of water seems infinitely simple and saves the need for storing a tank of hydrogen in situ.
China got over part of the drag-efficiency issue with a wind-turbine that is magnetically repelled from the ground and hovers/spins freely in the wind.
Nice, it's so sci-fi, but so zen.
Controlled gasification produces an amazingly efficient heat source if burned (or if captured, biogas) and can heat a drum of water which can then heat a brick-enclosed portion of your house all night.
I also think the anaerobic-fermentation gas you can harvest from a closed-composter would be the ideal input for a generator and for gas burners.
I salivate when I think of all humanity's and nature's waste products we could be utilising, denaturing whilst supporting ecological processes that renew these potential fuels.
The flipside of energy is it can be used as a tool of violence, it's unequal distribution is what maintains social strata, personal use is generally extremely self-interested and what we harvest from the environment always strips some organism of it's ecological niche.
Apparently the drop in pressure caused by large wind turbines causes bats to die instantly (something about dilated blood or air vessels) and the turbine's continuous sound has killed off whole herds of goats.
Smaller scale might be able to avoid this, but all the R&D goes into the profiteering large-scale plants and not into efficient designs for the budding DIY'er or even environmental impact minimalisation.
Nice to see the importance of a free-flowing uninhibited watershed is not lost on the original poster, PH8AL.
(Free, fresh, local fish is an integral part of any efficient lifestyle design)
MMMMM looking and waiting " Need more input " am accumulating DATA in my SSD brain. 
" Need more input " am accumulating DATA in my SSD brain.
100% clean energy travel.
heres one I want to try as soon as I can lay my hands on a bike, I know you have seen those rechargeable electric trike bikes. Saw one the other day with a 500 watt 24 volt motor that would pull 10 mph for 30 miles. Get a rim from an other bike and mount an Alternator just above one of the rear wheels and mount the extra rim (no tire) to the wheel hub and the rim should work as a pulley for a serpentine belt.
1" pulley on the Alt and a 26" rim (24" in the bed of the rim) and you have a 24:1 ratio. My math comes up with 10mph = 139rpm on the rim =3336rpm at the Alt pulley so even a cheap 90 amp Alt would be producing plenty of juice, may actually have to worry about overcharging the battery unless you install a stereo
Even if you can't produce enough power to charge the Batt and run the motor 1 charge on the Batt is good for and ideal 30 miles and you will extend that by what ever you do produce and you can always pedal and use the motor at the same time, with your assistance it should keep charged and is better than just pedaling.
Have an idea for adding a motor to a bike that didn't come withe one, old school like the old scooters with the engine on the front. Mount the motor in front of the handle bars, to drive it cut the crank hub out of a donor bike cut the pedal arms off leaving the sprocket, weld the opposite end from the sprocket to the motor shaft. A simple bracket welded to the Hub body attached to the bike or motor stops the housing from turning. This way when the motor is running it will drive the front wheel but when under pedal power it will free wheel and not drive the motor in reverse. Use the rear wheel from a multi-speed bike with all the sprockets for the front, mount the chain derailer from the donor bike on the front fork and now you have multiple gears. Route the wires for the motor to the rear to a battery and charging system. Might make a 2 wheeler a bit top heavy but would not interfere with the normal pedal opperation.
Mags you could always jack one of the panels from your house and make it solar Solar Trike Bike plans
heres one I want to try as soon as I can lay my hands on a bike, I know you have seen those rechargeable electric trike bikes. Saw one the other day with a 500 watt 24 volt motor that would pull 10 mph for 30 miles. Get a rim from an other bike and mount an Alternator just above one of the rear wheels and mount the extra rim (no tire) to the wheel hub and the rim should work as a pulley for a serpentine belt.
1" pulley on the Alt and a 26" rim (24" in the bed of the rim) and you have a 24:1 ratio. My math comes up with 10mph = 139rpm on the rim =3336rpm at the Alt pulley so even a cheap 90 amp Alt would be producing plenty of juice, may actually have to worry about overcharging the battery unless you install a stereo
Even if you can't produce enough power to charge the Batt and run the motor 1 charge on the Batt is good for and ideal 30 miles and you will extend that by what ever you do produce and you can always pedal and use the motor at the same time, with your assistance it should keep charged and is better than just pedaling.
Have an idea for adding a motor to a bike that didn't come withe one, old school like the old scooters with the engine on the front. Mount the motor in front of the handle bars, to drive it cut the crank hub out of a donor bike cut the pedal arms off leaving the sprocket, weld the opposite end from the sprocket to the motor shaft. A simple bracket welded to the Hub body attached to the bike or motor stops the housing from turning. This way when the motor is running it will drive the front wheel but when under pedal power it will free wheel and not drive the motor in reverse. Use the rear wheel from a multi-speed bike with all the sprockets for the front, mount the chain derailer from the donor bike on the front fork and now you have multiple gears. Route the wires for the motor to the rear to a battery and charging system. Might make a 2 wheeler a bit top heavy but would not interfere with the normal pedal opperation.
Mags you could always jack one of the panels from your house and make it solar Solar Trike Bike plans
160watt panel at 44V zoooooooooom
Was digging threw some of my old notebooks, was reminded oft this old idea from '97 I built but couldn't get the bugs out of.
Basically its a dry land water mill. I Had a piece of 14" pvc pipe 24' long turned up on end with reducers caps stepping the bottom down to 2" then that was attached to a water pump I scrounged from the engine of a Cat D9. I mounted it so the water that flows out of the 2" pipe turns the water pump in reverse and replaced its pulley with a 28" wheel from an old bandsaw mill we scrapped. Then a small 12v bilge pump to push the water back to the top. Used a 60amp alternator off of an old dodge truck and 3 boat batteries. I used Hand crank to get it turning. (dubbed the knuckle duster) The water in the small return pipe will naturally level with that in the larger tank so the pump only has to push the water a few extra feet to return it.
I literally spent more in pvc glue than on anything else. Total out of pocket was $15. Only had to buy the glue and a couple of wire connectors and pipe fittings.
We used it to light the horseshoe pitch with 4 old style head lights, it would give a good half hour longer on the lights than just the 3 batteries. Then it got hit by lightening. Luckily enough I never left the batteries with it as the 3 of them were more valuable than all the other parts combined. I had used some steel pipe at the top to finish out the return loop and didn't think to ground that. came up through the base frame through the pump and up through the water to the steel pipe wrecking havoc all the way up. It got into the bilge pump through the water and smoked that and into the alt through the frame.
Never worked well enough to replace, I think with better gear and a lot more knowledge now I could get it to give a modest return over just running the pump.
Besides the Obviously inadequate Alt I think I was loosing quite a bit of water velocity from the stepping in the reducer caps, a smooth cone would be far better.
Basically its a dry land water mill. I Had a piece of 14" pvc pipe 24' long turned up on end with reducers caps stepping the bottom down to 2" then that was attached to a water pump I scrounged from the engine of a Cat D9. I mounted it so the water that flows out of the 2" pipe turns the water pump in reverse and replaced its pulley with a 28" wheel from an old bandsaw mill we scrapped. Then a small 12v bilge pump to push the water back to the top. Used a 60amp alternator off of an old dodge truck and 3 boat batteries. I used Hand crank to get it turning. (dubbed the knuckle duster) The water in the small return pipe will naturally level with that in the larger tank so the pump only has to push the water a few extra feet to return it.
I literally spent more in pvc glue than on anything else. Total out of pocket was $15. Only had to buy the glue and a couple of wire connectors and pipe fittings.
We used it to light the horseshoe pitch with 4 old style head lights, it would give a good half hour longer on the lights than just the 3 batteries. Then it got hit by lightening. Luckily enough I never left the batteries with it as the 3 of them were more valuable than all the other parts combined. I had used some steel pipe at the top to finish out the return loop and didn't think to ground that. came up through the base frame through the pump and up through the water to the steel pipe wrecking havoc all the way up. It got into the bilge pump through the water and smoked that and into the alt through the frame.
Never worked well enough to replace, I think with better gear and a lot more knowledge now I could get it to give a modest return over just running the pump.
Besides the Obviously inadequate Alt I think I was loosing quite a bit of water velocity from the stepping in the reducer caps, a smooth cone would be far better.
Most motorized vehicles are about increasing friction between the wheels and the surface, to increase the traction from ever more powerful motors. That's sortof illogical as the obvious way to conserve power and increase efficiency, is by reducing the friction.
Currently, this drive (pardon the pun) to decrease the friction is being done inside the engine through lubrication, batteries instead of moving parts, etc. but to me, it makes more sense to put that outside the engine and think about using frictionless wheels or making the roads have frictionless glide rails or something like that. The same principle that maglev trains use, but it doesn't have to be magnetic -- an ordinary sled system could do the trick on downward slopes. It's just a matter of finding ways to control the slide.
Currently, this drive (pardon the pun) to decrease the friction is being done inside the engine through lubrication, batteries instead of moving parts, etc. but to me, it makes more sense to put that outside the engine and think about using frictionless wheels or making the roads have frictionless glide rails or something like that. The same principle that maglev trains use, but it doesn't have to be magnetic -- an ordinary sled system could do the trick on downward slopes. It's just a matter of finding ways to control the slide.
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