First off, many apologies, but i am slightly inebriated

How do you see the world? Everything around you, every thought you ever have? I have a strange belief that everything boils down to numbers. If it can't be measured then it cannot exist. Not even in the darkest parts of our mind. Which in turn can be broken down into binary form, ons and offs, so to speak, which makes everything black and white. Seemingly, even the most exciting/joyous etc moment in your life can be measured. Religion therefore can be measured. But does it answer any questions? Not really. Numbers, by definition, do not lie. But, if you don't understand the numbers, they can tell any story they wish.

Ignore this if it makes no sense please

Am gonna roll another and be quiet!

but how can you measure Nothingness?



Maybe numbers do play a role in the the Universe, but I think thats just the basic principle of life, to never divide by zero.

Learn a little about electrons and chaos theory and your "If it can't be measured then it cannot exist" theory will be shot to pieces. If you manage to get the BBC iplayer working, there was a pretty good series on there called Atom that explains it well enough for laymen.

Why is it that numbers always come up for conspiracy theories??

Everything we know or believe is based on mathematics.. Movies have been made about algorithms - the smarter people think they get - the bigger the numbers - to the power of whatever...

I think - therefore I count...

Its the point of numbers in the first place so it would only be right that you can use them to quantify anything and everything.

Chaos theory is just math we don't understand yet.

Not true, the very nature of chaos theory is that you can't quantify it. Numbers are a representation of things and nothing more. They may represent time, shape, position, motion, etc.. We use these representations to quantify, calculate, predict, plot, etc.. But just because you can represent a great number of things doesn't mean you can represent everything.


Except of course for the "Number 23"

I have to disagree Fractals are why. When viewed in the context of traditional European Geometry nature appears to chaos, its not chaos though its Geometry on a scale we just hadn't managed yet. Broadband antennas are a good example of what is possible now that we understand fractals. I am positive that when we can crunch the numbers on that scale the chaos theory will not only be proven wrong but will be vied the same way we do the Greeks thinking Greece was the center of everything.

I also don't believe that multiple universes exist side by side I am of the opinion they exist inside of one an other at differing scale. Look at an atom of fluorine and then look at our solar system, look at the structure and behavior of our galaxy and that of a molecule.

PH8AL byte your tongue.

Chaos Theory proven wrong? When has a scientific theory ever been proven wrong?

It is thinking like yours that gave us black holes - Thanks a lot for that one by the way!


Anyway to the point - You may very well be correct, but imagine the implications of everything being defined by numbers. If our thoughts, our dreams, hopes, ambitions, can all be represented in numbers than what are we really? Wouldn't every person be nothing more a complex algorithm? If that is the case where does a God fit into the equation. How about uncertainty. The implications of that kind of knowledge are staggering.

Good thread AsboDuck.

Atoms aren't "little solar systems" they were thought to be. When you delve into the world of the very very small, physics is turned on it's head.

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle


"quantum mechanics cannot give exact results, but only the probabilities for the occurrence of a variety of possible results."
Implications of uncertainty

It's possible that in the future some way will be found to measure things more precisely and this theory will be debunked. However, what may be is not what is.

Simply put numbers are endless because we just invent a new name for the numbers as we add them so it is possible to count an infinite number of things even if those things are infinite themselves. Drops of water in the ocean seam endless yet they don't go on forever, but we do not have the math at the level of perception to say exactly how many so we say endless.

Open notepad and place a small weight on the 1 key, each number added moves us one place further from the decimal, how far it can go is limited by your computer not by the number of times you can add another place.



The key is in the definition of the word uncertainty


It seems like chaos because we are not capable of quantifying it and assigning set principals to it. The rules of physics are not being turned on their head and it being random chaos. Just as with geometry before fractal math, we don't have the ability to crunch such huge numbers.

Schrodinger's cat is much the same argument just from a different camp of physics that in the end both camps where getting the same answer by a different route. Something doesn't exist if we don't observe it, much easier said by "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound"

In 1926 when this philosophy of physics originated time was believed to be a universal constant.
Heisenberg does not take into account relativity and the role of space/time being relevent to the observer. The uncertainty is that the mass of an electron moves at a different rate through space than its momentum (mass x velocity) can allow (quantum jump) making it impossible to predict, so our physics at our level of perception does not seem to apply because you can precisely track planets but not electrons. No one is quite to the answer yet but it would seem that at that size, mass acts differently against space/time and what they describe as a quantum jump in the electrons orbit is quite possibly the electron folding space time. If that is the case and we figure out the scheme of determining when it will happen and how far it will go it will no longer be uncertain or chaos. When we finally figure out when and how far these jumps will happen it will rock physics on a level of the universe.

Dark matter is how many physicists explain that the weight of the universe being far greater than the amount of matter in it. Universes existing endlessly smaller and larger inside and outside of each other explains this with out having to invent invisible particles. This theory is supported also by fractals which are repeating complex patterns repeating endlessly smaller or larger.

The whole point wraps down to the evolution of our understanding of math, its not that there is no way to quantify anything just that we haven't invented the math yet.

Sorry if this is a bit hard to read, I find physics fascinating and try to keep up but explaining things this complex is not something I am good at.

This stuff is way beyond me, but i oogled fractal math and found this cool image