1. Is suicide a valid option for exiting this life?
2. Why or why not?
3. Is it valid is in all circumstances or just some or none?
4. Why or why not?
5. Is there any logical reasoning behind your choice?
6. If so, what is it?
7. Is suicide a religious based stigma?
8. Why or why not?

Are You Feeling Suicidal?

Hmnm not easy to answer all these questions, but i do know that its kinda selfish.
Usually involves so many people around you, and youre the one that got away easy.

But as i said..so hard to give any straight ones...

When I inserted "An Enraged 450lb Gorilla" instead of "Suicide" into your initial query it made me /chuckle...

However suicide is no laughing matter as you must know; this is a very serious topic.

Suicide does hold some stigmas; I believe most cultures irregardless of faith have issues with it.

In a way it is a very selfish act depending on ones age or situation this could change, however it still remains taboo for most.

In the U.S. if you even feel the urge call 1-800-273-8255 - talk to someone.

I know the response will be, "Oh no man I was just asking" but to even bring this up outside of an educational setting is awkward to put it mildly.

Actually, this is a response to a topic in the members section, had one read it, and what makes me "chuckle" is the use of the non-word "irregardless."

This is philosophical conversation.

"Non-word" - LOL - you got me beat.

Regardless of all that... I guess I get it now...

You are responding to a topic by starting another topic?

-- "Had one read it" you say? - Possibly could have if you provided links & stated motive it would have put some of us stumbling upon this at ease.

Hope you gleaned the information you were looking for

I am glad this wasn't something you were seriously considering, seems you have the will to live & learn and maybe teach grammar?

@Wall2wall. Its hardly necessary to provide information regarding the thought processes or stimuli that lead to the creation of a thread that asks legitimate questions!

As to the questions themselves, i personally believe the situation of every individual must be assessed individually before drawing conclusions.
in the case of a person who is faced with a life of increasing debilitating pain and/or declining mental function with no hope of remission, relief or cure, should that person, while in full mental control of their faculties, make the concious decision, of their own free will and not in anyway influenced by outside parties, that they would rather take their own life than suffer further, then i would be in favour of allowing that person to make this choice.
Other than this scenario i find it very hard to see suicide as anything other than a selfish act, perhaps motivated by mental illness to a greater or lesser degree, but selfish none the less.
The damage done to family is incomprehensible.
Surviving family will find themselves forever questioning how any changes in their own behaviour could have lead to a different outcome.
To consider proceeding to take ones own life in the knowledge that this will happen displays a total disregard for anyone else's feelings or shows that the person isn't functioning correctly at that moment due to something effecting their ability to reason and should seek out help.
Regarding the religious stigma, for me its not, as i am not religious but as religions makes a point of sticking their noses in to every facet of a persons life obviously they will have a view on the subject that will be totally polarized and without any room for manoeuvre, people will blindly adopt this position as it is in line with doctrine.

It's hardly necessary? It's apparently necessary from where I was sitting and resulting in the source, when speaking of suicide you have to deduce if the person is considering it. That was done, end of story. I'm happy it's a "philosophical discussion" & not a contemplation. I do believe I was not alone when I was concerned for the OP's health & well being.

/carryon

Succinct and to the point. I'd concur with pretty much all of that.

I feel that the question list in the OP is essentially nonsensical (unless you follow the religious orthodoxy, as mentioned above) insofar as suicide is not something you can generalise about. There is no black and white, but myriad shades of grey. Too many variables in disparate people's lives to be able to pronounce with any degree of certainty the justification and morality, (or not, as the case may be) of suicide per se.

I agree with you Kano to a point because it would be so hard for the family's of the one's that or ILL and have no cure

I and several of my long term friends discuss suicide quite a bit.
In my opinion there are two classes of suicides. First is when suicide is a permanent solutio to a temporary problem. Example is the guy who offs his wife and himself when she tells him she is divorcing (leaving) him. He can't stand the pain of being rejected, the fear of the unknown, losing someone he cares about. If he thought ratioally he would realize that half the world is female and there might be another for him.

Second is the one my friends and I contemplate. That is when our lives are so distasteful that there is no hope for an improvement. Example is an illness that keeps you bedridden for the rest of your life. Or Alzheimers where you are a blithering idiot who must be locked up. Or worse, an illness that leaves you in constant pain which drugs cannot relieve. Senior citizens don't really have much to look forward to so in the cases I listed, I think ending your own life is an acceptable choice.

Interesting topic. i've always thought it would be wrong, no matter the situation. but i bet my relative who recently died a slow death from MS would differ with

me. the older i get, the more my eyes are opened to the different shades of gray in all diff areas of life.

It's been a month so I will now add my opinion to the thread.

I think suicide, in any situation, is a perfectly acceptable way of exiting this world. I also have some beliefs behind that might or might not be willing to discuss.

If you want to leave this life now because you don't like it here, think it sucks, are terminally ill, etc, so be it. All the more power to you. Do as you wish; it is your life, and it is your body. I, nor does anyone else, have the right to tell you what to do or how to live your life.

I think it is selfish. Yes, I do, but as a attached rider (as in an insurance policy) to that, I think every act, no matter what it is is selfish, in one form or another. I think those who think the act of suicide is selfish, I agree, but I will also say that their opinion that suicide is selfish is selfish in and of itself and therefore hypocritical.

I know everyone wants to feel good and if you think suicide is a way for you to stop feeling pain or not good, you have every right and privilege to do what you want with your life and body. Sure, you might leave a spouse and child(ren), but they are just as selfish to want you to live in a world you think is awful and put up with it from day to day.

I know many people will say I am a little loony or my "ethics" or "morals" are off-kilter or just nonexistent, but to them I say most of what you think has been ingrained in you as a corruption of Anglo-Saxon Judeo-Christian values. This goes back to whether or not the Bible or "holy books" in general are true. Just because you believe something does not mean someone else believes the same thing or thinks it's right. Right and wrong are mental constructs, nothing more.

Believe what you want and do as thou wilt. I cannot, nor can anyone else, control what you do, so instead of trying to make everyone conform to your ideals and trying to control the uncontrollable, just live your life, or not, as you see fit.

Ultimately one must ask themselves who am I to Judge others?

Then why not just come out and state the case for what it really is?

All larger religions frown upon suicide; even predating some current religions by thousands of years.

Whether it is Buddhism / Hindu / Muslim - or even when one stumbles upon a sect of aboriginals & had the ability to discuss this you would find certain values.

Some would leave a non-productive elder out on a rock to die... is that not a form of group suicide predicated upon resources rather than religion?

That being said these "religions" -most of which would not consider taking ones own life as the answer.


Obviously this is a delicate subject; however sidestepping that delicate nature and pinning it all on Religion as some sort of lynch pin is not necessarly needed.

The perceived anonymity that the INTERNET brings, allows one to explore a universe where this is an acceptable form of exiting the physical realm.

There have been cases where people actually coerce others of an impressionable nature into this act.

Also in very populated or over-populated cultures you have seen this as an acceptable form of exiting the physical realm due to that resource element.

This is all done in a tradition however, which again is separate from religion in definition and practice.

I would say that a chosen groups resources and lifestyle predicate the action more than any religion would.

Morality predates religion; so again I don't think we can box people up into groups simply based on faith based or non-faith based ideals.

In this matter if one sees fit to take ones own life they should.

No one can give you freedom & no one can take it away; you choose your destiny.

Once you're dead why worry yourself with laws or ethics?

- If one had such worries; the fact you discuss them won't strip away that perceived roadblock between oneself & their afterlife.

If one did not believe in an afterlife then it's a mute point all together -- Unless this is an entirely intellectual exercise.

I'm really beginning to think people don't read the previous posts.

I question whether or not morality predates religion as I think there has always been a belief system of some sort.

I spent about an hour reading this thread entirely.

Then answered your questions in the original post with what I believed to be some decent responses.

To question which came first would be the next step in the process; in essence one could learn more on any or all subjects.

Thanks for elaborating on your viewpoint, sorry if you're now perplexed by my responses, that was not the intent.

I believe suicide is a valid choice and is definately a selfish one; as it is also selfish to take the last piece of pizza.

I am not belittleing the topic, moreover I think too many people overemphasize it. That make it seem like a choice such as suicide is not valid because of how strongly some have feelings against it. If you choose to get a piercing or a tattoo people may think you made a bad choice but they don't have laws against it. And of course you would point out that those choices can essentially be reversed, but we also have freedom of speech here in my country. I can say something to somebody that can hurt them forever and it is my right by law; so that is fine? One action that changes things forever for another person is fine but to make a choice that changes things for me forever is not fine?

I think almost entirely thoughts that suicide is wrong on any level are always tied utterly to religious beliefs. Most every religion says suicide is wrong, and I would say many people wouldn't dislike it on a general level without religious inclinations to help.

And again on the selfishness - it is a selfish decision, but people mainly are against the decision for selfish reasons as well. So aparently one person's selfishness is more important than another's is the conclusion.

/my two cents atm

This is a very hard question to answer. In some situations, such as norton pointed out, I would believe it acceptable. But to ened your own life in response to a temporary problem such as a boy/girlfirend/husband/wife leaving you, I just think it should be thought through. My mo had a friend who killed himself. He blew a hole right through his skull. What makes it all the more heartbreaking is that he did it right when his mother walked through the door. My mom always faces the question, "What could I have done." He killed himself all because my mother did not want to go out with him. She loved him like a brother, but he read more into it. When she turned him down, he couldn't bear it, so he killed himself. His other friends blamed her, and she blamed herself.

If one commits suicide, you aren't just ending your life, your starting a chain-reaction of guilt and blame, and sometimes, more death.

Suicide leaves a hole in lives of many, but if you are, as norton said:

I wouldn't say "Good job!" but I also wouldn't say "What a coward." If there truely is an unbearable future in front of you, and you have considered it thoroughly, I wouldn't reject the idea.

I think this topic raises a few points really and it is entirely contextual..what we might consider to be a trivial problem in our lives Might seem insurmountable to someone else...I trained as a Samaritan (Listener) and I have heard heartbreaking stories and have actually sat and chatted with people who were contemplating taking their own lives.When people are in utter despair they don't think in a conventional way and in some cases resort to thinking that the Only way out is to Die.. Norton's post was great in the fact that he talked about people in extreme pain and in a position where they can no longer care for themselves in a dignified manner. My wife's Grandma is in this position at the moment in a nursing home having to be sat on the toilet and showered ect.(the ladies who care for her have to use a winch to lift her)..She is perfectly Lucid and understands everything around her but her body is giving up slowly but surely. I often think about how I would feel if I was in that position..But then I watch a program on TV and see people like Stephen Hawkins and think WOW! that guy is incredible, and what would our world be like were in not for people like him and his great mind, If he had considered assisted suicide at a place like the Netherlands..( I forget the name) all things considered I think yes it could be construed as selfish ,but, as LaoTzu and a couple of the other Posters have written selfishness is a matter of context. I have been in hospital with a nervous Breakdown (a few years ago now) and did try to kill myself.. Boy am I glad I didn't succeed..

WHEW...my Da committed suicide in 1988. He was a Viet Nam vet, awarded a Silver Star, and did shit he was ASHAMED of whilst there.

He told me for years that "one day it's gonna be too much for me to bear", and I so miss him and wish he knew his Grandkids but who the fook am I to judge what he lived and did?

(tears are rolling.....)

That's truly tragic Arkoma
Vietnam did display some things men did not like to speak of.

and left a lot of people 'Shook up'

I hate this topic but at the same time keep coming back to it. I don't want to reply but what I have to say hasn't really been said yet.

My view on the selfishness issue is in line with Lao, at the true heart of a philosophical discussion any act we commit for ourselves is selfish by definition.

There are a vast sea of reasons people do this but for the sake of a discussion things have to be categorized and I will place this into 2, and address each separately.

The first being mental illness, when some one suffering from a mental illness kills themselves it is not selfish, they are not in their right mind. They did not fail those they left behind, we failed them. The rash of suicides in the media lately whether it was school bullies or the pain from living as a homosexual in our society, there is an underlying problem that was not caused by these things but was triggered by it. The media focus is always on the easier things to quantify, but the proof is there in common sense. Many people have endured these troubles in life and not ended their life or some one else's. It may not be a popular view but my opinion is the people in their lives failed them by not taking serious the signs that they were in trouble, this is two fold when its a child. Rarely does any one just snap with out warning. These are tragic, useless deaths.

The 2nd category, pain from chronic disease, has to be viewed as a completely different thing, you just can't judge it by the same measure. This one I know personally, I live in quite a bit of pain from 2 different severe injuries I've suffered, for me though suicide would be giving up, I'm a true survivor, its at the core of who I am, I embrace it because it tells me Im alive. I used to think others were weak if they gave up. My opinion changed dramatically with my brothers death. He died of esophageal cancer May 24th, 09.

He was 11 years older than me and when I was little he seemed a super hero, a large powerful man with the heart of a lion, but kind, he laughed easily. He always thought of his family and friends before himself.

He fought for 4 years when it spread to his liver and even when it spread to his brain. But when he knew he didn't have many days left where he could function he made a point to see each of us and in his way say goodbye. He was comfortable with people but his whole life he preferred the solitude of nature and he asked me to take him hunting while he could still go, but I said no because I knew he was to far gone and it would probably kill him, but I understood that was his plan. We talked about it and he said he didn't want his kids to see him waste away to nothing, that it was a good fight but it was over. I couldn't do it, I wasn't strong enough to let go so I urged him to fight and promised to stick by him. I'll regret that to the grave.

A few days later he swallowed a bottle of vicodin, they rushed him to the hospital and saved his life. Several people in the family were actually angry with him and said it was selfish, the State got involved because here its a crime to kill yourself. Between them and the family they stuck him in a home under suicide watch, whether they meant it or not they treated him like he had done something wrong. He lived in the home a few more weeks and slipped down hill fast and was moved to the hospital where they did everything they could to prevent him dying. Ive seen death before this and I can tell you his last few days are proof some things are far worse.

What we did to him was torture, mental and physical, even though he suffered the pain with strength it was wrong to make him. Worse was the sadness that he died knowing our last memory of him was the broken shell that was left.

Until you have died so horribly you have no right to call some one selfish for choosing a quick death.

Well said, PH8AL.

Aye, mate

Indeed.

*ADL_242 EDIT :: Merged topic with existing one. Topicitle: Suicide Boothes, Good idea?*


As insane as it may sound to start a conversation on this, I was watching futurama the other night during a suicide booth scene and thought to myself "What if we had suicide facilities?"

So, personally? I'm alright with the idea. An average of one people jump in front of a German subway a day (don't ask for the statistic, I doubt half of you want to read a report in German anyway XD), people be jumping from buildings, blowing their brains out, putting black tarp over them and lying in the road, sitting in a car thats turned on in a garage, drinking drain-o, hanging themselves in kindergarten classrooms, burning themselves to death, slitting things, drinking glass, toasters in the bath tub, its insane. I mean, yeah, they'd have to sign some paper work, but suicide clinics might be good. At the very least, the option for old people to kill themselves when they can't pee anymore.


Happy fun debate time, go! Extra credit

No, not a good idea.

Many people suffer a bout of depression in their lives for one reason or another. Most of them don't commit suicide because the options are limited and mostly hold out the prospect of being uncomfortable in the extreme. They mostly get over the depressed period and go on to enjoy full and productive lives.

Suicide is a one-way street. You can't change your mind later...

It is legal in Sweden to have "Assisted Suicide" but I don't believe this idea will spread and become too popular.
It would not happen.
More info

not a good idea and might be abused

Just read my typo. Guess a lot of schizophrenics jump in front of trains in Germany.

Anyway, so people between the ages of 13-45 are out, but what about 78 year olds who have terminal cancer?

Maybe there should be an assessment on whether they are emotionally fit for them to avail these Suicide Booths.

There is my other topic about suicide in here somewhere.



How are they going to be abused? Unless you're Bender, you can only use the thing once. It's not like you're going to the shrink to say you're addicted to suicide.

Look at the bigger picture. People could be forced to use a suicide booth and if they were an acceptable thing then there would likely be no investigation afterwards.

Except there would be safeguards in place such as having to scan two pieces of picture identification and facial recognition as well as being sober/not high and only one person in the booth at a time. How else would they be able to send out he death certificate?

I knew someone was going to bring that up.

Personally i thought of hash's comment in the sense of blackmail. The only problem i see with it aside from possibly easy access to such a decision is simply that humans will manage to make a mess of everything, and this just might not be something we should want to delve into.

If we're moving onto euthanasia here, i most certainly agree with it despite the concerns. Making someone suffer without any hope is just cruel, dogs get better treatment.

People could be forced to commit suicide even without the booth. The problem of forced suicide has occurred since the advent of documented history so the suicide booth wouldn't present a unique problem in this respect.

No?........ Except..... wouldn't it would be more readily accessible?

Couple years ago Washington state passed a "Death with Dignity" law. The criteria for a lethal prescripton is:

"Washington's new law requires that any patient asking for a lethal prescription must be a resident of the state, be at least 18 years old, declared mentally competent to make the request, and two doctors have to certify that he or she has six months or less to live, "

That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I think this rightfully makes suicide legal if the motive and the reason is strong enough.

I myself am a Vietnam Vet and to this day i have heavy bouts of depression and anxiety
i go to my local VA hospital every other week for meds and mental health counseling
Suicide is always way in the back of my mind,but the love of my wife and 2 great kids i have
always keep me in check.
I will always believe in death with dignity,and i feel suicide i just an easy way out (my feelings only).
Id love to write more but the subject makes my skin crawl,but i wanted to get my 2 cents in.
Thank you
Bill