Find me one and I may convert....

Um.. hedge on eternal bets?

There really isn't one. People mostly only believe because they were told from an early age that this is the truth and you will suffer eternal damnation (from an aparently all loving god?!?) for not believing it.

Yeah. I know that with the technological advances our society has made our ability to gain and spread knowledge has increased. But I've always found it hard to reconcile that people that don't know anything about a God (whatever stripe) would be bound for some awful afterlife for just being uninformed.

I'm not going to pretend I know the bible inside and out, but does anyone know if there is an actual passage that says something along those lines, that you will suffer eternal damnation for being an unbeliever?

When a person asks a question, he asks for one of two reasons;

1- TO LEARN SOMETHNG.
2- TO MAKE FUN OF THE SUBJECT.

Either your reason is I think this is not the place for it, because;

I believe you must have in your country religion centers for all the known religions known so you don’t want someone from here.

We are a multi national cultural forum, were everyone have his own "believing system" according to his culture, personal thoughts.

As some here believe in God(s) (different religions), some also may not.

And I really hate to see someone here bringing this up just to make fun of others believes. (As I personally think it’s the 2nd reason why you are asking this)

So please if you are REALLY INTRESTED & CERIOSE BUT THE LANGUGE DIDN’T HELP YOU

Why don’t you contact these religious centers in your place, I think they will be more than happy to send you cheep or even free stuff to read\watch.

Or even you can find all this on the net.

One more important thing, IF YOU REALLY NOT MAKING FUN OF PEOPLES BELIVES HERE

Atheism is considered as a religion, we are the slaves to our believes & lots of other things. I advice you to study the meaning of religion in sociology, anthropology, philosophy & psychology.

Slavery is something you can't escape it, if you understand that right you'll find out that free well is nothing but a forced thing to do.

So when there is a slave, there is a god!

The question is who is yours.

PS: I'd write the same thing to anyone talks about Atheism too.
PPS: I respect that this a place were people say what they like & believe BUT YOUR FREEDOM ENDS ONE THE BORDER OF THE OTHER.

I just didn’t find the question is innocent enough (my believes, my fault)

I HONESTLY WISH YOU A GOOD LUCK IN FINDING PEACE IN WHAT EVER YOU BELIVE IN MAN

Peace

PsychOPsych

Maybe the OP's comment WAS a bit flippant, but this is a political forum of open discourse. If someone says anything ridiculous on these forums they should EXPECT a direct response and have their assumptions challenged. I don't support name calling and outright flaming but neither will I curb my comments on any overly sensitive or politically correct basis. Open discourse is a freedom I cherish and I expect those that post on these forums to back up their opinions in a similar fashion, and I'm sure I'm not alone in my sentiment.

If you're basically saying that we need to be sensitive to the point that we can't voice our opinions and debate issues what's the point of having a forum like this?

If you have a comment you'd like to direct at the OP (or anyone else for that matter) maybe you should criticize what they say instead of criticizing them directly (I know you kinda did this but then you seemed to suggest even more). Satire is a part of social and political commentary even if it's not particularly clever.

I honestly don't see the problem with this thread, or my posts in it. I was neither being insensitive or ignorant. My thread was meant to bring people who have faith and are religious into the mix and let them tell me, and anyone else who may be interested in the topic, why they believe what they believe, and why, maybe, I should as well. I think you should reread my posts from other threads before you judge me on what you percieve.

I don’t dare judging you or any other one!

I personally have Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish & Muslim friends. I'd say that what kept our relation geed is that everyone was keeping his fate to him\her self.

If you wrote what you wrote now in first place it would have been more respectful to the subject for I thought the question was not enisont as I said before & as I added there (my believe my fault!)

If you reread what I wrote, you'd find that my point was that this not the place to prove anything. If you are searching for the truth, there are channels for that.

I believe that from the beging of time a man was killing his brother for any reason including religious!!!

Yah we kill in the name of god people. And any non-rational religious discussion alwes finishes in this way, "my god kicks your god's…."!!!

And I didn’t want it to happen here, but no this doesn't mean we shouldn’t talk about it, I wouldn’t say that.

So yes I hate politics because it’s a fashion now to send some people overseas to kill others in the name of god, we still do it, never will stop!

And yes I keep my faith to myself. I hope I made myself clear here.

Peace to you all

I don't believe there is such a subject that can't be discussed provocatively and intelligently at the same time. If someone is offended by such a subject, then I put it to them to show a little maturity and accept that others may have different ideas. So long as the discussion stays mature, and the members show intelligence and empathy towards other beliefs, everyone should stay happy. Censorship is never a good idea even with the best intentions.

Wow heated...

well i personally believe there are reasons to believe in a sterotypical "God", such as the seemingly perfect and fragile balance of the eco-system and world around us and also the world seems to me plainly "designed" and therefore requires the need for there to be an architect...

also i believe there many reasons to not believe in a God, scientific evidence to name just one.

It just depends, in your perspective, which reasons outweigh the others...

I disagree that atheism is a religion, it has none of the distinguishing marks

i dunno, its tricky,
with atheism you may still be following a "God" and therefore is a "religion" just not a God in the conventional sense...

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally held by a community, involving adherence to codified beliefs and rituals and study of ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments."According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions.


The Encyclopedia of Religion defines religion this way;

"In summary, it may be said that almost every known culture involves the religious in the above sense of a depth dimension in cultural experiences at all levels — a push, whether ill-defined or conscious, toward some sort of ultimacy and transcendence that will provide norms and power for the rest of life. When more or less distinct patterns of behaviour are built around this depth dimension in a culture, this structure constitutes religion in its historically recognizable form. Religion is the organization of life around the depth dimensions of experience — varied in form, completeness, and clarity in accordance with the environing culture."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religon

SO AS I SAID Atheism is a religion

EDIT: i cant copy all the link, but i think if you read it all, you'll get the point

I have to agree, atheism doesn't share anything with religion except opposite ends of a spectrum. Faith, hope, devotion to a deity that can, above all else, never be proven is essentially what makes a religion. Atheism, is it's truest sense, rejects all of that. Atheists can have hope, but generally it is blind hope. Maybe religions will be proven to have the same blind faith, but at this point, they put it to a belief in a god.

the point is to explane the unknow! humans need that understand, to have a logic of what happen in there life

thats why they call it faith, to belive in something you dont see, read, toch, smil & hear.

thats why there is myth's the multi-god's (god of the sea, wend, etc.)

people needed to understand why things happend

NO REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE BELIVES HERE

some will PUT THERE FAITH IN science, luck etc.

the logic is the same, to explane the unknown, something makes you sleep at night happy that you understod!

so i still say "Atheism is a religion" becouse its a "believing system"

not: sorry for the spellings

By the same logic, atheism, because of it system of not believing in what makes a religion, defines itself as not a religion.

1. Why are you shouting?

2. I have read all of that, before I even posted thanks.

3. Guess what? I still disagree that atheism falls into sociological or psychological definitions of religion, there is nothing there to contradict that at all.

ok well... to try and answer the core question of this thread. Im a Christian and, personally,(i know there might be other Christians that may disagree with me) reasons i definitely cant give you. to believe in God, or any other god(s) for that matter, is a question of faith and need. I say that theres is no specific reason that i can give you to believe in God because faith is not something that one does experiments on to then have a set of results where you draw the conclusion to believe or not. its even more foolish to try and give you a logical reason. faith goes against the logic of things for the most part so It would like trying to give you a valid supernatural explanation of how the Newtonian laws work. to believe in God has to be because of a personal reason, a reason that varies from person to person. some may seek faith because they feel somehow empty in their lives, some, in look for answers. i have to go so i cant keep writing but id like to keep discussing if there are any questions. and to answer the other question you asked





Of course this is not the end of it. right now i cant find the passage but the Bible does state that God will judge taking in consideration the persons knowledge, or lack thereof. this applies to someone that has never had the opportunity of being preached about God and therefore completely lacks the knowledge of a true God. This also applies to babies and mentally challenged persons since there is a lack of understanding or conscious thought in the matter of religious beliefs.

I get your meaning. Your english is a bit "rough" so I could have misinterpreted your intent.Just to comment on your suggestion to find another channel in the "search for truth," are you familiar with concept of a greek dialectic? I believe we're engaging in it right now as ANOTHER way of finding truth.The church came up with a number of points that they used as proof that God existed including 1) Creation required a First Cause aka God to which later on Bertrand Russell (well known athiest) asked -who caused the first cause?Yeah, I have to agree there's a certain amount of sense to this. The "God" in atheism would be oneself -- an atheist effectively makes themselves God.

im sorry to say this, but that question is not a very profound one. Of course this is from a Christian standpoint but the question of who caused the first cause is answered by the infinity of God. Always was, always will be. Infinity, although easily understood and acknowledged, is something the human mind will never grasp fully, hence all the debate and arguments when discussing the infinite nature of God.

Actually, if I was going to argue the existance of God - I'd probably say his existance is circular rather than linear and make logical arguements accordingly.

In any event, I used that as an example of how the early church tried to find "proof" which was immediately refuted. You may think the question isn't particularly profound but neither is the "proof".

I see that this is an obvious mystery, but surely it is the exactly the sam mystery that is in modern science - what caused the big bang? What caused the cause of the big bang? the fact is when you look at the same "mystery" in both ideas the idea of an ever present ever existed being almost seems more logical!

Problem with the big bang theory is the fact that it is indeed, just a theory. It may be true or false, for now it is accepted.

No, they don't make themselves out to be an omnipotent deity.

Saying "There isn't a god" doesn't mean "I am god" at all :P

I won't try to convince you to but my father always said " Teach a kid to believe in something when he is young to prevent him from believing anything when he gets older."

He don't have to put a religion with believing in a higher power. Many of the godless ones have good morals and live their life not hurting any one.....

A good point there were a number of theories before the big bang one and as a theory it has little to no basis in actual fact. It seems people have accepted it on the basis of faith. :DOh no? All athiests believe they don't need God because THEY know all there is to know of the difference between good and evil (they include other people as well in this but it's really themselves they're basing the distinction on). Where does all this knowledge and power come from to dictate and determine such things? Isn't it rather god-like to be able to do such things?

A theory does have basis in fact.

Scientists look at all the facts, make theories, and whichever one the facts point to the most is usually generally accepted. Doesn't mean it is the absolute truth, but it is what we can say is probable with all that we know now.



No, I don't think athiests think that they don't need a god. I'm pretty sure athiests think "ok, I don't have any reason to believe this, there is absolutly no proof at all, why would I believe something just because someone told me it is the truth?".

If I told you that there was a 1000 metre long paperclip in the north atlantic ocean, would you believe me? Probably not, because there is no proof, no logical reason to believe.

When people are taught religon at an early age they learn it without logic and reason, they just believe what they are told. If I told a kid that about that paperclip, they'd believe me. Just like they believe in santa and the easter bunny. They grow up and realise santa and the easter bunny arn't real. If they were told from an early age that they would suffer eternal damnation for not believing in santa then I am sure that less would stop believing in him.



I don't think anyone except religious people claim to know all there is to know about what is right and wrong. Even then it was probably just people along time ago who thought they knew what was perfectly right, so they made a religon and made up an omnipotent deity to say that it was the absolute truth so people would believe them.

Either way, right and wrong are subjective. It's all what you think - is it right to steal so you can survive? Is it right to sell potentially dangerous things (like guns) so you can survive? Some would say yes, some would say no. Most people accept that it is subjective, though religious people often are certain they their right and wrong is the ultimate right and wrong.

And no, if you believe in god, it's probably not because you think you need a guiding figure to tell you right and wrong. It's probably because you were told to believe, so you did, and now you are trying to justify that belief., though not in a way that you try to find facts and if they go against your argument then you change it; but in the way that you know your argument and want facts to support it. That's the problem with religon; it's written there (thought not in plain understandable english) what you should believe, so you do, and later try to justify that blind belief.

This is a perfect example of the way an athiest thinks. Allow me to counter:

It is NOT proof nor have a basis in fact. It is OBSERVED fact that has yet to be disproven based on the hypothesis -- a hypothesis being a GUESS. Many theories (such as the one that stated that there was no relationship between matter and energy) have continued for hundreds of years as "fact" simply because they were not disproven. But as soon as they were they were no longer fact. It takes one confirmed "disproof" to obliterate any "fact" in a theory. That's why the only scientific concept approaching a LAW has been gravity.



You believe science because you're told it's "fact" and yet the proof may or may not be disproven at any time. How is that any different?



If I were to prove by disproving other things (which is what science does) I could assert a logical reason for it being true even if it wasn't. My "facts", if not disproven, would MAKE it true. Obviously, considering our educated population the argument would have to be quite sophisticated but this kind of thing has happenned before in science. What about stories of the Loch Ness and other such things? They have a basis in science even if the bold face of it is inaccurate.



You're absoultely right. This is why so many people believe in science without fully understanding it.



People make up all kinds of things and call it "good" or "bad". Even if this is something that has led to religion in the past there's obviously no stopping the trend in the modern era even if it's used slightly differently. So the assertion that only religious people do this isn't really accurate.



I agree, they are subjective. But it's the NON-religious people that are convinced they can make all the right decisions without any guidance. Isn't that a form of "ultimate right and wrong"?




That's a fundamental misunderstanding of religion then. Of COURSE they think they need a guiding figure and fixed moral structure -- why else would one try to change one's life to live a certain way if they didn't feel they needed to?



It's true that some grow up in a religion, pay it lip service, and then do pretty much whatever they want but even those people are influenced in their moral choices by the religion they were raised in to some degree or another. But you can't deny that there are people that set about living their lives in accordance with a specific moral structure attributed to "God" or whatever. There's lots of examples of it.

I would be classified as an atheist and I don't believe good or evil exist...except in the minds of those that do believe in them.

If I use one of these words it is because they have generally accepted meanings and I wish to insight the feeling associated with their meanings.

I believe in cause and effect, choices and consequences.



Then you would be surprised to learn that it is now the Law of Evolution.



Because as a sceintist I hold no emotional attachment to an idea...if it is disproved then I change my idea. Science is only applicable to those things that can be tested...so religion does not apply. Simple test, does the power of prayer work? Who's prayer? What religion? How do you measure each subjects devotion? Science and religion do not mix. The scientific method can not be applied and you can not control the variables.

I know that science isn't an end all of "this is right" or something, it is constantly evolving. If scientists see something else that supports a different theory, then it can influence the generally accepted opinion.

Science is still much better then religon, because science kind of says "This is what is probably right based on all the evidence we have now" when religon is saying "This is right, don't question it sinner!".



It is different because science says things based on observance and reason, while religon says things based on.. Well, I guess religon is the science of the long past. They saw stuff, and couldn't observe it very well (without the modern tools), so they just said "god did it" or something. That stuck, and people believe it today. However, science has taken advantage of modern advancements and microscopes and all that stuff to provide a much better explanation of things.



I wouldn't believe something just because it hasn't been disproved; i'd need it to be proven (like a picture of the massive paperclip), and I am pretty sure science is the same way. They need proof.



It is certainly good for people to know that science isn't perfect, but it is alot better then religon.



No, from my general impression, non religious people don't say "this is definitivly right". It's religious people that seem to say "this is right, 100%, because I read it in an old book translated many times and I was told it".

You can make a decent argument against science, but not for religon. You seem to be acting like you think scientists are and you seem to think that if science isn't perfect, then religon must be. I don't know all of the proof behind scientific theories, but many I know the basics of it (like the big bang theory - we see that the universe is expanding, so that means that at some time along time ago it was probably very condensed. It's like if I throw a baseball at you and you see it is coming from me but didn't see me throw it you can assume it was me). I trust science because I know they took alot of time to observe and it is the best explanation of things that we've got.



Scared of eternal damnation for not believing?

Nope...you can disprove something but you can never prove it. Proof is absolute and as a scientist you must always be willing to take an unbiased look at new evidence to see if it disproves your theory or law. A law does not mean that it has been proven...simply that after years and years of attempts to disprove it as a theory we still can not so it is generally accepted as a temporary rule until evidence appears to change it.

There are many arguments to prove and disprove the existence of God and these have been proposed and rejected by philosophers, theologians, and other thinkers throughout history. People have killed and died for their idea of religion and associated beliefs since the dawn of man. My own personal view, is that for whatever reason, at some point, it was decided that man should create of the title of God and Satan purely to allow humans to focus on a figurehead of an ideal. God for Good and Satan for Bad (depending on your point of view of course). However, if you have ever looked into the face of a new born baby, straight out of the womb, when he or she is placed into the arms of it's mother. You know that there must be a God, to have created something so perfect from a little piece of genetic code.

After having 2 children I'll agree he may have been there during conception. She wouldn't shut up about him.

I think this is an excellent thread, thanks for starting it! I can relate to alot of stuff thats been said already.

I think we have a lot more knowledge and education than we had before, and it predisposes us to questioning religion, whereas people would've treated it as science in the past. I don't agree with people who say things like, you only believe in god/religion because you're stupid, or you're easily manipulated, or that because you were brought up that way, because it's true about some people but not for others.

I believe in creation because I don't think (or I don't understand how) big-bang successfully explains where all the stuff in the universe came from. To me, it explains how the universe began, but not how stuff came about from seemingly nothing. I also think that prayer helps you to believe if you think you're prayers have been answered. Of course, you could rationalise and say that belief distorts your judgement into thinking that your prayers were answered when in fact it was just pure luck that whatever you prayed for became true.

I guess it's up to you, because at the end of the day, you might have reason to believe it, but there's not much proof, so it's just blind belief whether you accept the existence of a creator or not.

I think some people believe in god through religion because of the persons who brought it, the prophets, I guess the people of the time called for miracles and thats how they settled the matter. On the subject of religion, I think people should 'never impose on others what they would not choose for themselves' - Confucius's golden rule. I think religion gets a lot of flack for what people do as well, sometimes it's people who hurt others and not the religion, but sometimes it's the other way round too.

No, that's the problem - people impose on others their choices and opinions that they do choose for themself :P People choose (kind of) to be religious and impose those choices on to others by making laws based in religion.

But for things like "don't murder/rape/beat someone else because you wouldn't want it done to you" is good.

Just wanted to point that out about that quote you posted :)

There's something bigger than all of us I believe. We have a scientific explanation, and we have the so called "religious" explanation. If we call that higher being, or whatever 'god', doesnt mean that we're looking at it from a religious view. But I think that there is something out there.

I kind of feel the same way, but I'm wondering out loud most times if it's just the fact that we are so alone in the vast expanse of forever that we find it hard to fathom the loneliness it entails.

The funny thing is, whenever a topic like this comes up, and when i think of space just itself like all the planets, and to think of this like never ending space lol it messes with your head, something created it, simple. Its way too complex, this world, the way everything is balanced, or was balanced. For someone to not believe that there isnt something out there, is mental :p

Im fairly certain that God doesn't exist but I'm pretty sure that if he exists he's an atheist.

That being said I have to say that I read a lot of bullshit in this topic mostly from the religious side. Sorry guys but do you actually read the stuff you're writing?

First of all you never even had a real chance here. Read the title. It sais logical there. Boom, you lost. God/Religion has nothing to do with logic. I pretty sure that the Pope (or any other religious dumbnut) would love to outlaw logic but so far they have not succeeded and thats why the world still has a slight chance.

Before I continue I just want to say that (as long as you're nor ultra religious (you know the gay-bashing-my-god- has-a-bigger-dick-than-yours-and-everybody-else-is-a-sinner kind)) I have nothing against you, but please allow me to save you.

Let's talk about this god person. Around the world this alleged god person is credited with the creation of life, the universe and everything. The details depend on your holy book of choice but I think you’re all familiar with the story about the seven days. If you believe in the Bible, aka holy scripture dictated by an infallible, omniscient, omnipotent god, mankind showed up on a Friday afternoon a few thousand years ago.

I know, you shouldn’t take the Bible too literal and there are other attempts to incorporate God into the origins of life but in the end it always comes down to the same unanswerable question: Does this god person really exist and is the fact that we exist a proof for his existenz?
The problem with god is that you can’t prove him. There’s no undisputable evidence for his existenz, then after all it is called believing. If there was evidence for his existence you wouldn’t need to believe, you would know. Believers will argue, that believing requires a leap of faith. This brings us back to the term faith, which means to believe something without reasons to do so.
Since we are all reasonable people the argument of faith does not really work for us and we come to an inevitable conclusion.
We can’t prove the existenz god and therefore he does not exist.
Believers will be upset by this phrase and so they should be.

The proving problem works both ways. You can’t disprove God either and it seems like we reached a dead end. So let us take a step back. Are there other things we can’t prove or disprove? Actually there are quite a lfew. Fairies, unicorns, dragons, flying spaghetti monsters, … I could go on and on but you get the point.

I think it is fair to say that no one here believes in fairies. Why? Well, we we can’t see, hear, smell or touch them. We actually can’t really disprove fairies, but chances are, that if you can’t see, hear, smell or touch it, it does not exists beyond the pages of a fairy tale book.

What does that tell us about god? We can’t see, hear, smell or touch him and he only shows up in this big book no one actually reads. So why is he so different from the fairy
The great thing about god is, that since he seems to be unavailable most of the time, you can speak in his name. It’s quite fascinating and disturbing what people are willing to do because somebody tells them, that an invisible guy in the clouds told him that he should tell them to go and kill people who take their orders from another invisible guy on another cloud.

The great thing about this invisible guy is that he doesn’t complain if people give crazy orders in his name. If he’s really this good sky daddy most people want him to be, why doesn’t he intervene if somebody starts a genocide in his name?

There are three possible answers and you’re not going to like them.
1. He can’t stop it.
2. He doesn’t want to stop it.
3. He doesn’t exist and therefore can’t stop it.

(No, there's no 4. Don't give me that free will crap.)

It is up to you to choose one of them, but the choice is obvious.

So, get the hate mail comming. ;-)

Deepdelver

1 logical reason to believe in God?.............hmmmmmmmmmmmmm



there isn't 1!

Could we have turned this around & asked "Good reasons NOT to believe in god"? or would the devout have done the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears & screaming not listening not listening LA lalalalalala!??

My reason is the platypus
some divine force had to create this hilarious cross breed of duck/beaver

You must be thinking of the islamic god of jihad, burqa women and such. Surely you could not be thinking of the christian god who says turn the other cheek or those of you with out sin throw the first stone? Surely it could not be the god who says jesus died on the cross so that all can be forgiven for thier sins. Surely it could not be the faith that practices feed the poor or spread the peace?

What about the jewish god even?


All religion even old jihadslam is open for interpretation...... I just know that wether you think its true or all a elaborate man mad fantasy, it has and will continue to comfort the dieing and grant solice to those who wish to accept..

1 logical reason you ask>? Well I would say chance.

All i can say here is, it really depends on you if you believe...
For me, Doing Good Is enough, if you dont believe him. I i think its fine for him,
you didnt commit any bad things anyways...

I am a Roman Christian, im proud to say it.. ^^
but i wont force you to believe him...

Do Good Deeds, He will bless thou.

I dare you to ask this question in the middle east

Technically, because christians, jews, and muslims all worship the same god.



The god of judgement, who (according what his servents/worshippers say) killed the world except one family because they didn't worship him...

Did you know that the bible tells people you can kill someone for working on the sabbath? Someone asked that to a preist on a TV show the preist ignored it and said "I am impressed with your knowledge of the bible".



The same god who is so egotistic that he will make people suffer for not worshipping him...

Oh sure, you can join with the bad guy just so he doesn't do bad things to you, but that's just not right.

I'm just curious newart... could you show me where in the Bible it says he killed all the world because they didn't worship him, or is that just what you have gathered from what you hear people say?

Jesus "worked" on the sabbath and the pharisees, who Jesus called hypocrites, tried to kill him as well. However, if you read the entire Bible you can clearly see that "the Jewish Law" is done with and we are supposed to be like Jesus. So all these things about "well in the Bible it says you can't eat Pork" is all Old Testament, and not applicable to Christians, just like the point that you brought up.

Once you bring a different set of codes and laws, the "god" changes. The Islamic Allah is quite different from the Christian one, as they have different mannerisms. They're not technically the same one, but instead, have the same origins. You're right, the Jews weren't suppose to work on the sabbath; its called discipline and obedience. From a Jewish perspective, its showing respect to their God, the creator of everything, architect of the universe. Christians, Jews, and Muslims, along with the whole world suffer daily, both those that do believe in God and those that don't.