I think that Karl Marx had some good idea, but i think that Lenine destroy him.
What you think?

Marx did have some good ideas. Unfortunately they all involved people and that's where they fell flat.

dingdingding its why socialism has never worked and never will. Similarly why many of his texts are proven wrong with various economies.

The ideas are good, the problem is that the general human being is not.

Marx had some good criticisms of capitalism but his idea of simply taking over the capitalist power structure and hoping it withers away (instead of destroying it) didn't work very well, as is apparent after looking at the results of any of the Marxist revolutions that have taken place (for example, the Russian revolution).

I'm a Marxist and proud of it! Socialism would be a paradise if you could weed out all the bad apples, but that's a big if. Marx was a genius, light years ahead of his time. The human race is just going to have to mature some more I guess . The view of Socialism has been severely tarnished by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong Il(who lives in a palace, and sips Hennessey while the traffic lights in Pyongyang don't even work), all these men corrupted the ideals of Marx to their own ends. To me, Socialism is all about sharing for the good off all. Capitalism in America is based on growth, growth is finite....

Disclaimer: Just my opinion, your results may vary, please read The Communist Manifesto for more details

Anime ,lol...

Capitalist is not bad at all, but the people who controls it are really bad.
Socialist is the right thing i think.
But i don't like the idea of communist witch is that : Being poor in a powerfull country, i don't think that the right way to live, because we go no where whit that mentality and Lenine prove it.

I think that the human allways want more, and never we will live in peace each other.

The problem is, if people do not receive the rewards of their labors, then they quit working. "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs" sounds all well and good, but it just doesn't work. The USSR is gone, and even Red China has had to embrace a stilted form of capitalism. I think Karl meant well, but the road to hell is paved with "Good Intentions"...........

Marx’s labor theory was a modern rework of Aristotle’s ethical theories, including those on human flourishing, justice and social exchange.
He was a great writer but hardly a great thinker. I love his papers, but they are just a rework of Aristotle's. So maybe we should ask, "Why didn't Aristotle's theories work?" Most of you have peged it. People are not perfect.

karl marx definintely had the correct ideas both politacaly and economicaly,no argument about that..and yes the countries that have practised socialism have colapsed but that doesnt mean that it isnt possible...the parties of those countries made mistakes in practising such a new idea and the social and economic conditions globaly werent ready yet...

because we use money, capitalism is the best. It encourages people to do something for someone for something. It encourages innovation. The problem lies in people who want something for nothing and think they are entitled to it. And in people who feel sorry for the lazies. Also with the tax code, it puts people with money in power and not people who want to do good for people in power. WE need the Fair Tax ASAP!!!!!

Look at Barak Obama, here you got a black guy who was born poor, worked his way up the ladder, and became president. That pretty much puts an end to " i am black/indian/mexican/whatever besides white" so therefore I can not get anywhere in life. FINALLY!!!!!!

lets face it , there will never be an ideal .
if there was the world would be perfect would it not.

First, I do not admire Marx at all,but I respect him for when he was asked if it's ok for him to live via capitalistic money, he said smth like well...the books are only my hobby, I do not suggest anything, I just say what I think,life is life.
That I respect. And when somebody like freaking Lenin found a way to power in these books and thanks to his "revolution" my country is like 150 years back in it's development,more than that, we got several generations of soviet-oriented people, including a lot in government , and until the very last person who have lived in the USSR dies, the soviecy will be alive in people and make problems for the nation.
Socialism is a dead cause, believe me, I've seen it, I see it's influence every day though years have passed since USSR is gone.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Capitalism is no better than socialism,not in a single way. Socialism=stupid ideology=total domination=slavery. Capitalism=money=credit=slavery. Period. And there is no lesser evil. Capitalism as Corporativism in it's modern form is collapsing, no? How about financial crisis - yahoo/google it.

The ugly fact is that we urgently need somethin new, something really better ot it's the same circle.

There was a wonderful writer knows as Lev Gumilev (son of Anna Ahmatova, btw socialism had put him in jail) and he had a theory that nations evolve in a specific way. Among common people there are so-called passionaries that value the good of all the nation above their value of life,and at the point where the amount of these people reaches criticall mass (if I remeber correct it was at least 10%), the nation evolves.
Or as John Nash said ,for a population of people to be successfull one must act on his good and the population good at the same time.

So, what we need is more people to start valueing the good of humanity above their own hunger for money or power,when we have enough of these people something may change, until than we are doomed,very doomed.

Marx was a genious and had very valuable views of how our world should be run.

However the modern word of socialism has been polluted views whipped up in the years following (and during) world war two. the thing is, socialism would work if it werent for human greed and power hunger dragging it down. Lenin was a hero for Russia, if it hadn't been for him there would have continued to be change but at a much much slower pace and under the Tsarist regime things would have been much much worse. You could debate that if the revolution hadn't of happened Germany might have walked on through Russia and wouldnt have been beaten.
Its because of Stalin's paranoid leadership and cold war hostilities that socialism has such a bad punch today.

I live in a capitalist system which works most of the time and im more or less happy in my life,
but when you look at some of the injustice and inequality around you you start to question how things should be.
Consumerism is pumping fat cats higher whilst worker pay remains low compared to banking and corporate sallerys.

I believe in a mixed capitalist/socialist society.
People are driven by the instinct to be better than their neighbour and its that that drives capitalism,
So if our culture was still allowed consumer products and a good standard of living but wealth was more evenly distributed along with Free health care, Better education, transport and public services and widespead reform of laws. nationalisation of big business. the only element of capitalism being the consumer driven economy, yet instead of the wealth being channeled to fuel one person's pension, the money could be used to help less fortunate people and making the world a better place to live in.


I could carry on all night xD but im going to leave it at that.

i think he was an idiotic genius.

Socialism is a great theory (genius) but put into practice becomes communism (idiotic)!

I was listening to Glenn Beck this past week and this is a rough summation of what he said the difference is between Socialism and Capitolism: "When Stalin's financial advisor was called to talk to him before he was shot, Stalin asked him which system was better. His financial advisor said Capitolism, because it resets. Capitolism works like the seasons. First you start in the winter when it feels like things are low and no body can see thier way out comes the spring. The economy starts to grow and there is excitement in the air and life starts to wake up. Summer is a season of arrogence when nothing at aqll can go srong and the people are strong, the economy stable and everybody benifits. Then fall comes and the economy starts to go down hill. Then you are now back in the winter. Winter is the reset so that the system can catch up with its self. Socialism is a one season system. It doesn't matter who controls it. It by it's nature is winter all the time." Needless to say Stalins financial advisor was shot.

It has been my belief that if the world was perfectly round and the sky was always blue and the grass is always green, Socialism can work. It will not work because it is the nature of those in power have to stay in power and power like that corrupts. I do not remember who said it but this statement says it all: "Absolute power corrups absolutely." Socialism can not work because it does not allow itself to recognize personal achievement. Everything you do is for the benifit of the state, the collective, anything to keep the state moving.

Capitalism, when left to the people who move it, allows for innovation and success for those impliment for movement. Now that is not saying that greed is not involved, because it is. But greed tempered with good moral fiber is a good thing. Capitalism when left alone, generally, is a self maintaining system. You produce a good product and at a decent price and you are successful. Somebody comes along and makes a better product than yours and you fall behind you will fail, so you need to inovate continiously to be successful. (Innovation which explains a lot why America has done so well for being only a little over 200 yrs old.)

I feel like I am talking in circles here. Let me try and use a little story to make my point: In Capitalism the quest to build a better mousetrap that is always happening. It is means to become successful. Socialism can not have this better mousetrap because... Well why have a better mouse trap? Is it good for the state to have a better mousetrap? What kind of change will come around if everyone has to have this mousetrap? It throws in a variable that Socialism can not take into account.

Now I do suppose I am a little partial to Capitalism because I live here in America. I have done a lot of research in how America works. Capitalism does work when left to the people to control it. It does not work when messed with, just like Socialsim. But the big difference is that the government has to control Socialism to get it to work properly and Capitalism relies on the masses to work like it is supposed to. I do not know about how anyone feels when the government get's involved in your life as a whole, but it pisses me off because it feels like as a person I do not count. When have you ever had dealings with the government and not have your entire world f-ed up?

Another really good question that I have for all of you who think Socialism is a good thing: There are countries like Mexico, India, Russia, Thailand and the like. People from these countries flock to America, WHY? The overwhelming reason from my studies have been: They come here because America gives everyone a chance succeed. A chance that if they stayed in their own countries they would have that chance. There are no other countries in the world like America. Think about that.

Darth Capitalism works for a select few and is controlled by the corruption of a handful of amazingly massive (US) companies who think because they have money and power they are the gods we should bow down to. Socialism in theory gives power to the people. In reality though people are people and Orson Wells knew what he was saying when he commented on all things are equal only some more than others.

That said, if human beings could sort themselves out it makes more sense to be a socialist than a capitalist. One of the biggest crimes of capitalism is selfishness, not seeing how the actions of a few effect a lot of people negatively - look at the G8 for example and the way a few powerful capilist nations (including here in the UK) constantly pose trading sanctions with African nations to prevent the growth in their own capitalist economic growth.

Socialism as shown by Hitler, Stalin, Lennin, Mao, etc. only mask Socialism as giving power to the people. Like I said in my previous post, the economic control is based around a few where with power. Did you know that if you worked in the higher up positions in the government in Russia, you have a special part of the road to make it easier for you to get to work? Only one example. Capitalism is controled by the consumer (ie the people), meaning that you create a good product and market it properly then the creator of said product:
a) Make money
b) employ more people
c) create more consumers
d) raise the quality of life of people in general

It forces whatever industry it effects to evolve, become better or die. To a certain degree it is Survivalism. It is not the job of the government to provide the quality of life it is the responsibility of the individuals job. If you want the government to set the standard of life then take a really good look at your healthcare system in the UK. It is an economic failing system that can not care of individuals on a need to serve basis. I seem to remember a story from the UK that some guy broke his leg and it took about 3 months for the GOVERNMENT healthcare system to get around to him to set the leg right. He was then denied care because he was a smoker. Or let's try this one: There are plenty of stories coming out of the UK where people are dying "ON ROUTE" to the hospital, this meaning because there is a law now that in the event of an accident, that patients only wait 3 hours to get in to see a doctor. Often enough hospitals are overbooked with regular patients that should this happen they can not often take care of emergencies, hence when emergencies come up people in Ambulences take a backseat and because of the law they are being left in the transport until a space can be made for them. Why is it do you think that where Canada is concerned (our neighbor here,) who is also have a Socialized system of Healthcare they still cross the boarder to the US to see a doctor? I can tell you why. It takes on average 3 weeks to see a doctor if you come down with a serious illness. This is the Socialized system of health. Do you think that a Socialized system of government would do any better?

Now i know that when you think of Socialism you think economics, which it is. But when you put it into prespective, Socialism HAS to encompass everything. And like I said before do you really want the government involved in your personal life? It comes to a point where just to deal with, for this example in healthcare that the government to "CONTROL" what you eat, because if you eat the wrong thing, where you live, because of the weather or conditions of the area where you live, population control, etc. because it puts stress on the healthcare system in your area.

Now to most of the "SUPER COMPANIES" in America, got that way because they inovated their sections of industies. Yes it causes control, but that is why there is now regulations that evolve to create a more compeditive environment. Sure you have companies out there that create this void because they do the job better. Sure they seem like this big juggernaut that look like they are invincible, but the one thing that history has told the world over and over again, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall." We have seen this since the begining of time (look toward the dinosaurs.) For a little more recient example:

In the states here there were companies like Jamesway and Ames, these were discount stores. They failed to evolve when Walmart and Target came into the picture and they started to close. Walmart and Target were able to set a new standard that served the consumer better. And yet Jamesway and Ames neglected to evolve. Needless to say they went the way of the dinosaurs. They are now extinct. Given enough time some one will come along and set a new standard that Walmart and Target can not or will not adjust to and these companies will take the place of Walmart and Target. This is true Capitalism at work.

Tell me where in the history of the planet Socialism works? You can mask your opinions a false sense of helping the little guy, the under privaliged, etc. But I have encountered too many people who are too afraid, have been beaten down by, or just gave up on doing for themselves. You can not help someone like this, PERIOD!!!! I lost my job reciently and yes I felt this way. But it is MY problem and I have to deal with it. I am going back to college. I am also to a certain extent self-employed. It is MY job. It is my resposibility to make these changes, not the governments. Take some personal resposibility. When I was doing good in my life I took care of the people around me, I had a house of my own, I fed my family, not the government. This is Capitalism. Because when you come down to it, as the previous examples of countries, who supported Socialism, Socialism only serves itself. Capitalism requires that everybody get involved, from the "BIG BUSINESSES" to the consumers.

As to sanctions that we impose on other nations, have you ever asked why we do this? And that does not mean that belief that it is because we are greedy or that corperations control our government, though that may be hapening now with the current administration,(jk). There are political issues too. How about those countries who have dealt with us in the past, Japan, India, Israel. These countries are developing into economic super powers.

The Orson Wells example, if you truely read his works was pointing out Socialism and the dangers of it. 1984 was one of his best works and it pretty much explained how people follow blindly into what is good for the Society over what is good for the individual where being an individual means nothing.

Just as a second thought. In socialsim, there is reward for being a hard, more intelegent, or inovative worker? Another case in point with this one is look at France where if you graduate from a University then it is required by the government that you are given a job, which has historically created jobs where you can pretty much sleep all day and get paid for it with no reprecussions. Is this fair to the person who works hard for a living? Once again Socialism at work. Capitalism rewards in most if not all cases. Work hard, think hard, and inovation......SUCCEED.

Dont you mean George Orwell?


If the mousetrap catches mice, why purchase better, more expensive ones? If one desires change, one should consider changing their way of thinking, instead of buying more and more mousetraps, maybe get a cat.

Sorry My bad about the name mix up. I get too worked up sometimes and mis-read things.

So which would you buy as far as moustraps? A live trap or a dead trap? That choice is improtant. It is vital to everyone. The point of the mousetrap is that there are better, different and varieties out there and are always improvements to be made on the origional, and should be looked into, not just become complacent with what is out there, but to innovate, make improvements, use your imagination.

Through this you come up with a better idea. The consumer benifits from your idea with using it, causing demand. The people needed to built creating, equales to more consumers. For your efforts, you should reap the benefits. In socialism no one reaps the benifits, and often enough there is no idea because there is no drive, no incentive to do so.

Okay even though I am a Capitalist, let me say this. Socialism can workin certain instances. But you can not depend on people in general to do the right thing. Such as: being filling holes in the workforce where needed, not being driven by passions but for the common good of the country, people being happy for what they have no matter how little it may be, NO ONE gets more than other people. These are the major principals of Socialism.

My wife lost her job recently as well, guess what it wasn't her fault. The company was supposedly doing well then all of a suddenly cuts over 25% of their work force. This is what happens in a capitalist economy. Granted I dont think socialism works very well, if at all once implemented. You just have to realize that the big man can always win much easier then the little guy.

Small business is a sore spot with myself and a few people at my work. These people can not get the funds to create jobs, because banks/government wont make them available. Meanwhile big business, like banks, get bail outs and tax cuts (both republicans and democrats) both tend to do this. The government should make loans available for small business owners at a allow interest rate (say around 2 to 5 percent) and then make them pay it back. In the long run the government makes more money, more people to tax and higher tax brackets.

The same could be said for student loans. Why, because we (my wife and I) tried to better ourselves must we have to pay, probably more then double what we borrowed because of insane interest rates? Government should offer student loans at 1 or 2 percent, same with small business. Not only do they get a more well educated work force, they get a higher paid workforce, which guess what?! Mean higher taxes which Uh oh means more revenue for the government.

I just dont understand why these simple ideas never get implemented that could really work. Like I said I am ready for the New America.

And once again I have to point out if the Government stays out of the way of business in general it will reset itself. You have to be patient. The more money that government throws at things not allowing them to fail like is the natural order of things then it will only prolong the inevitable. You have to let this happen.

Socialism blows, plain and simple.

Agreed, economists think so too.

4 out of 5 doctors also agree that people WILL die.

Maybe the question is not about liking what Marx said or what Aristole's said...Maybe it's time to starting new things...Most of the time the major problem is that we cannot let go of the past. Yes, we are supposed to learn something of these people, but not follow them to the letter. Use their teachings to create your own idear and create something new. Something that might be possible, something with a fresh look and a new name.

I slept on this. I am a class A personality and i am sorry if it seemed like I was imposing on anybody posting on this topic. I am a passionate person. I do greatly agree that there some very good points on both sides. It is a very unfortunate thing that it will take an awefully long time to determine which is better. I am bull headed when it comes to America and perhaps that will be my own downfall in the end. I am a bit of a historian along with my other side ventures, and as you read what people have viewed of all our countries in the past, the people who's ideas our societies are to be based on, you really get to see a point where we as a society dropped the probverbial (damn my spelling is off at 7:45 in the morning) ball.

Reading list for those of you interested in the ideas of how our founding fathers here in the states had in mind for our country:

5,000 Year Leap - W. Cleon Skousen

The Real George Washington
The Real Thomas Jefferson
The real Benjamin Franklin
(these three books are the letters sent back and forth from our founding fathers)

The Forgotten Man - Amity Shlaes

If someone has a list of books to read in dealing with the origins of Socialism please share. I look forward to reading them.

Once again I feel the little man always gets the blunt of it. How many people in "power"/"charge" are actually feeling this? Not many, I mean it is obvious just look around.

Like I have stated before common needs before common greed.

Then I ask you this. Why should the more "well off" in a society be obligated to help out the less fortunate? Give me one's logic of why those that make more in society should be forced to contribute an increased amount to support those that make much less?

Just curious.

IMO the well off should help the less well off as they have money to burn...For example you have people who buy dog parfume 10 cc for $3000. So they can easily help the less fortune people. Also according to my logic why should a manager or some big shot make a million dollars in a day while someone who does physical labor only make a few hundred dollars????

I personally think there should be a max on what a individual can make.

Okay, you simply said the rich should be "willing" to help the poor because they have more "extra spending cash." I'm wondering, in your opinion, why they should be OBLIGATED to help. I realize on moral grounds it's always best to help out a fellow man in need, I just want to know somebody's reasoning of WHY they should be forced to.

Hmm.To be honoust i don't know why they should be obligated.....But at the same time why should people be obligated to work their ass of for a few bucks? I mean why has the world have to be like this? Is it such a bad thing if everybody had a money status that would be the same? But instead of money people should strive for a status in intelect.

But i do understand what you mean Justsomenutckracker...I guess thats the problem with those people anyway.

That's my whole problem with socialism. Nobody can actually explain WHY people should be obligated to live like everyone else. Granted some people have just been lucky enough to land the high level jobs that pay well, but what people don't necessarily realize is how stressful they can be. From personal experience my father's job kinda tore the family apart because he was stressed out all the time from all of his responsibilities. So that's my response as to why they get paid so much.

But on another note, I don't think it's fair that I study my ass off in school to enter the medical profession and land a high paying job, but then earn the same amount as somebody making a damned automobile or something where their "manual labor" involves doing the same 1 task over and over again. No offense to anybody but a damned ape could do that job and it's no wonder why machines are taking over that industry. But anyway, I realize some people's jobs are very labor intensive and they probably deserve more money for it, but is socialism really the right idea there? If socialism were to take over where I live what incentive would I have to succeed in life? I can just work an easy 9-5 job, smoke pot every day, and make the same amount of money as the guy running the local electronics store (though that's more communism than socialism, but you get the gist). Hell, the socialism paradigm is "focus on equity rather than efficiency." Socialism doesn't give people enough incentive to work their ass off anymore and overall productivity decreases. That's why Karl Marx can is an idiot.

Agreed on many points...But thats why i say that we need a new aproach...No changing of old systems etc..Someone has to come up with a new idear. The idears from days have become old and a lot of factors have changed and some are obsolete.

Very often that wealth is generated at the expense of those less fortunate. Take the state of capitalism at this moment for example, where ordinary people are being asked to bail out the bloated and failing big businesses, banks, finance houses &etc (and after the fat-cats have already creamed off their nice little "retirement funds" for themselves first); so why should a failing capitalist business expect the "less fortunate" to help them out - by using certain socialist principles ?


And If you take a wider, global view, the "West" has exploited the "3rd World" for generations. There are millions of people throughout the world who barely have enough food to live on because of direct or indirect action/ manipulation by western governments and businesses -such as struggling to pay back crippling interest loans or being forced to grow "inappropriate" crops for western palates. Yet we complain when those from poorer states ask for a piece of the action?

As someone once said, "I used to be a socialist, then I got mugged by reality."
I think that applies to many of us - it certainly does to me. When the scales of youthful idealism fall from your eyes, and you realise how the world really works, socialism becomes just another crazy idea...
We are programmed to aspire, for ourselves and for our families, and aspiration and socialism are diametrically opposed. Ergo, it will never work while human beings are involved. Bees, yes. Ants, yes. People, no.

Perhaps Marx should have laid off the booze some, and maybe got a job. Perhaps his ideas were shaped by the fact that he benfited from a wealthy sponsor who supported his writing / drinking / thinking.

Honestly I can not think of a good reason for them to obligated. The problem I feel that happens is that \they just forget what it is like to be in the lower positions.

Some of us go to school get lots of loans and still get thrown out on our asses, because the company isn't making enough to pay for all the people. Personally I think the cuts should start at the top, obviously the person at the top has no idea what they are doing if the company is going to shit. Perfect example is the banks, pull those CEO, etc out of power and find someone new who can do the job.

I feel it is a moral thing, if I have the power/time/money to help I do, and would. Unfortunately I am stuck working the peon job for crappy pay. Not complaining at least I have a job, just the "higher ups" have no idea. I personally can barely get the right tool to do the jobs because "money is tight." I work on a old ass parking system at my work running version 2 software, they are up to version 6. No they wont upgrade because it costs money, and they have no idea what I have to go trough on a daily basis to keep this system up, yet when it goes down and they can't leave at 1pm (after they came in at 10am) , because the system is glitchin up they want the throw a hissy fit.

I feel the people is that people have forgotten what American is all about. We forget about the lower middle class and lower class. Sometimes these people do not have the same opportunities as those in middle upper class.

I am lower middle class, I do not make enough to be anymore and this is with a college degree in IT. The class structure is changing, due to greed.

Once again common needs before common greeds.

I will always help someone out. Till this day still feel awesome about the time I bought the disabled homeless man a pizza, never saw anyone more happy to have something so simple.

Because many hands make light work.

It's also hard to profit off a workforce that has no morale, no efficiency, and no drive to do a good job.

As Mr Burns said - a happy worker is a busy worker.

Yes good point nisa. You know you meet more of these "Progressives" here in colleges. It is all fine and dandy while you are young and impressionable to say that thses people who less fortunate deserve a helping hand, but when they finally get out of their Ivy League educations and start making big bucks. They find out quickly when they start dragging down $100k plus that the government starts taking more and more money out of their pay. They start thinking why did they pay $50k a year on an education if the government is going to take it all. Well here you go to pay for those less fortunate than you.

Nothing stops people from "Donating" to charities. Talking to people in thier communities and showing them the way to better themselves. Or here is an even better one, if you feel the need to give the government more money, go right ahead, they will take it. But when you are being told that you have to pay another 5% of your pay to benifit Swapm Field Mice in San Francisco (I have a copy of this one on my computer, look up HR-1 2009, that is the spending bill this year introduced by the current administration,) you really start to grasp the idea of how much the government does not deserve the responsibility to handle money, especially when it comes to those less fortunate.

Not really - taxes pay for all sorts of things: Military, wages for bureaucrats, roads, building schools, police, fire department, important infrastructure like your sewage system. The US has a remarkably poor welfare system compared to most places in the world- and that's saying something because ours is pretty bad too, yet nowhere near the abysmal version of "looking after the less fortunate" that the US has. Taxes pay for plenty of other things before they pay to help people out in the US model. Those taxes are paying for the things that you use in your day to day life, the same things that you couldn't afford to pay tax on when you were a poor student, yet still had the same access to all of these resources as everyone else.

In any case - if you're going to get up on your high horse when you're a student and demand that the less fortunate need a helping hand, don't backflip when you have the ability to do so. That my friends, is hypocrisy.

I do not have a problem with helping the next guy out when it comes to bettering his/herself. My problem is that I do not need the government to take it out of my hands. I have by no means been financially successful in my professional life. But I give what I can to charities, whether it is with my time or with whatever money I might have left over out of my paycheck. So do NOT EVER call me a hypocrite.

I do not have a regular full time job at this point in my life and I rely on myself to push through by doing my part time job of writing, which is my true passion. It does not always pay the bills, however between my wife and I, we take care of our family, and still do our charity work. I DO NOT depend on the government to pay my bills or in any way shape or form support my life or the life of my family.

Yes it is important to help those less fortunate than ourselves, and I have no problem doing so, if it is not going to be mis-spent. But when it comes to "helping" those less fortunate, I do not expect my money that the government takes from me every day that I bust my back-side to support Octo-mom who has nothing better to do than than go house shopping for a home that she by no other means than the money I am forced to give, because she can't keep her legs closed because she knows the more children she has: a) insures that she does not have to work or b) gets more money from the government.

We never said the welfare system is perfect as it is. It needs reform.

Perhaps we should start a thread to deal with that on (just kidding.) It is actually a funny comment. Have you ever said that you can not depend on the government? Or oh yeah like that is ever going to happen. What makes anyone think that you can count on any form of government to do the right thing. These laws have been on the books since the mid 30's, and everytime they attempt to reform it, they mess it up even more.

Thanks Soundwave, you soothe the savage beast, being the peace maker you are.

So, you don't backflip then? That's great - i merely responded to your point where you said:



As far as I can see I was supporting your statement, though you got upset when i said that people who do what you describe above are being hypocritical. I'll call that as it is - caps lock or no caps lock. If you have the nerve to tell people with money that they should help the less fotunate when you don't have any, but change your mind on the issue when you do, that is nothing short of hypocritcal.



I agree with the part about money not being mis-spent, and I can relate in a small way to your idea of charity work - I used to be employed as a youth worker. Not exactly charity work, but it was a job where I helped people less fortunate than myself, and it made a difference to the occasional young person. I also got payed bugger all for the work. (My job where I work now is at least $20K more, with less responsibility, and considerably less stress)



But what about the people that don't or won't donate to charities when they are well within their means to? Wouldn't it annoy you that you were supporting your charities, but no one else that you lived near you or worked with you bothered contributing because they didn't have to? How would you feel if you - or your wife had cancer - and no one donated money to cancer research? It's not important to them, but dam it's important to you. It's times like that that I'm glad the government administers public money. There's charities out there that I think are a waste of money, but to other people they might be the only thing that is important.

Chances are a lot would be missed if the government didn't look after it and it was left to the public to pay to whatever charity they wanted. I don't believe that your idea would work. It's a bnice ideal, but I know that if I didn't have to pay money to a welfare tax regime then I wouldn't. I'd save it for my own rainy day, or buy myself a $600 cricket bat or something stupid like that. The last thing on my mind would be helping out problems that I can't see, or that I have no relation to. So there's one person who would step out of your model, and i'm sure there's heaps of people like me.





You raise a very good point about Octo-Mum. But let's be clear, she had those babies via IVF, not through "opening her legs", so it's a question of medical ethics rather than questioning her judgement on how much sex she likes to have.

I agree that she shouldn't be supported (encouraged even?) by all this media bs, and any handouts that she is getting, but the other side is this - why should her 14 children, who have had no choice in the matter, be made to suffer? Why should they live in poverty which is caused by the actions of their mother? That to me is what welfare is really about - not just helping those in need, but helping those who are victims of circumstance beyond their control.





I understand that, but the suggestion was that the government takes your tax dollar and helps the less fortunate with it, and that's just not how it is. That makes it sound like that's where most of the tax goes.

Break up all the budgets for different goverment spending and you'll see just how little the government will spend on it - our country here is bad for it too.

I'd like to see the figures on how much the US (and Australia) spends on welfare compared to it's Military spending.

You're absolutely right, reform is needed.

Sorry for my flipping out, I do take things personally sometimes. Maybe I took that generalization to person, I am sorry for that. I didn't mean to explode.

I think the point that I was trying to make is that you can not just lump those who do make money and do not give back to the communities with those who do not. It is amazing to see so many people who bash companies like Walmart, who not only bring jobs and decent products at a reasonable price to the consumers, just because their suppliers deal with countries in seedy ways. This is often not only the suppliers but the countries who have no labor laws at all. But on the other hand, a lot of bringing these countries also benifit from the extra work. History has taught us about labor laws, remember our country went through this in the 1920's, China is currently developing theirs, but that is another subject and I ramble. It is amazing to find out how much Walmart encourages its employees to do community service, work with communities, etc. They are also one of the highest donaters to the community, not only when the are in a building phase but generally over all. For a reference point please read: "The World is Flat: A Brief History of the Globalized World in the Twenty-first Century." - Thomas L. Friedman

I guess to get down to the nitty-gritty of it. I do understand what the government tries to do with our money. I, 50% of the time agree with it. It's the other 50% that I have to really question. I personally believe that when you get down and dirty, it comes to we the people to start supporting those less fortunate then ourselves. I do not think that any one should depend on the government to give us anything. It is a plus that they do when crap happens. But it has to stop and start somewhere. And from my personal point of view, I think that it should be taken off the governmant's, already huge back, because there are major issues with mis-use of funds where if it fell on us, the ones who have that conscience to do well for others, to support those less fortunate then ourselves. We can do the research and figure what works and what does not.

Karl Marx was a genius. Still makes me smile that the Wall Street Journal (the bastion of capitalism) named him one of the 3 greatest thinkers, the other 2 Sigmund Freud and Albert Einstein.

Marx and Freud had similar problems, they both formed theories of complex systems without the knowledge base to do so. Hence both made sound observations (that are still relevant today) but lacked the knowledge to form the right conclusions (which have been disproved).

Arguing whether socialism or capitalism is the best system makes no sense. The world has never seen true capitalism or true socialism. The US is today a blend of capitalism and socialism with a hint of communism and probably some other isms. Instead of labeling ideas to some imaginary pure system why not judge the ideas on their merit?

I think Karl Marx is more important now then ever before! But hey I'm a swede

First as I said on another post, when I have a long one (especially catching up), thank you for your time, it is the most valuable gift you can give anyone. Once given you can not get it back, good or bad. Also I will be posting after a poem that addressing some of the things that have come out in the post, bear in mind this was written Dec 13, 2004. Again thank you.

Ideas don't fail us, we fail ideas. Sharing is good period. The problem is we have no laws about greed and that should hold just as high a penalty as any other serious crime. Democracy isn't today what it was meant to be. Either is Socialism. Capitalism and Commercialism are breeding grounds for Greed and Selfishness. As one person said great for growth, and that's why it won. Now we've grown enough, time to change our ways before we go too far.

I could not disagree more. No it encourages someone to do the minimal for someone and get as much as they can for it. Your lazies comment kinda makes that point. In the Capitalism system, I only succeed if I am #1. When I become #1, I must keep others from trying to take from me. To that end if someone comes out with a great idea that threatens my place, I can buy them out. Also if there idea would save my customer from having to buy as much of my stuff as they do, I will hide that so I can keep getting what I get from them. I hope I explained that well. I suggest you or for that matter anyone watch "The Corporation", the brain child of Capitalism and Commercialism. A Canadian company came up with new wiper blades for cars. You would never need another set, your car would die before these did. A US (not relevant just factual) company that made OK wipers bought it and then buried the blades never to be seen again. Same things is going on with the Entertainment industry right now. The public is now aware of how much it costs for a disk, and also that they don't need them; Hard drives, Flash drives, etc, and they own it, all they want is the raw product. But if that happens then these Corporations will not get what they have been getting, so instead of embracing new tech, they are filing suit after suit, in an effort to keep this from becoming the norm.

I'll get heat but understand I am glad he's in. As for Obama, only black people notice he's black, half black I might add. Almost everyone else just sees the best person for the job nothing else.

Darth Jesus, slavery is headed your way, disguised but that's what it is. I would ask you prove your circular theory applied to Capitalism. And don't forget it took a World War to make it swing around the last time, and it's been proped up since the late 80's like a wet paper bad with toothpicks. Good products? Why are you buying Chinese stuff then? Innovate more like cheapen, cut corners, make substandard and hope you don't get caught. Please don't call it America, there is Canada, Mexico, many central, and south American countries, it's the US you're referring to. And they've done that by bulling other countries. Cuba is a great example of a country that would do great except for the US embargo on it, still, for over 50 years. Yet the US does business with China, please. I strongly suggest you see the movie I suggested will enlighten you to some of that.


That is more like it Charnel!!!!


Again That's more like it shortcircuit!!!!! They are not implimented because the Elite loose their control then.


I assume those books have quotes for the founding fathers if not google them, they warned that today would happend, there is a circle here it's the lack of keeping greed in check, regardless of the system.



It's simple, no one makes anything great on their own. Your elite rich wouldn't be there with out the devoted workers making the company great. The elite just think they deserve more than they really do and there are no laws to keep them from being GREEDY. The group and take on more than the individuale, check out Battle at Krugar Hill



Couldn't agree more, a % of the net not a dime more. How many of these troubled companies gave out big bonuses last year, Darth, justsomekracker?



That is the first thing I agree with you on, I'll address that later in a short, hmm as short as I can paper on how I think we should change our society for the better, as far as business/economics goes, well and some morel stuff as well.


So well said and so many good points I couldn't edit it!
And the US will send the CIA in and corrupt the situation until it serves them, Mockingbird, Project Ajax, etc.

Part 2


Funny

Agreed, but that's no reason to give up and just conform, V for Vendetta shows that point well. Maybe as suggested earlier time to change the program?


Sadly that maybe a point, I'm not making much for all of my thinking and trying to find solutions to humanities plagues, LOL, although I don't do it for myself, I do in hopes for humanity. If we don't make it as a species to; other planets, solar system, galaxies, in my opinion we've failed. We think we've done a lot but really compared to what? I little pebble of sand in the ocean of space, I really am not that impressed myself.


Beautiful and well said

Bully in a Sandbox

Like a bully in a sand box filled with mirth
The universe has many others than just little Earth
No more than the insects who gather in groups
Fighting with others for their little roots
We may not have K9s’ to rip at our flesh
Traded for words to rip the soul from our chest
While some count pennies to prove they are better than others
Most seem to miss the point which is we are all still brothers
Time grows short, and land does too,
Some say we act like animals in the Zoo
This would be an insult to all animals fool
For unlike humanity they are not cruel
I do not know what bad things are on the horizon
But I can see the cloud, to the heavens it is rising
The sadness I feel for what we could have achieved
Is only overshadowed with miseries not yet relieved

I have no understanding why so few make our choice
When we have so many and make the majority voice
Our resources grow less, our population grows more
The economic system is about to hit the floor
Thirty years have gone by since we went to the moon
We could have grown food or even made saloon
Instead we made weapons to kill each other
Fighting for lines on a map with our brother
Enslaving other countries to meet our needs
We ignore all others and their pleads
We greedily all want cars and our fees
Showing no respect for the plants and the trees
Subways are better a wiser view and not as crude
Instead of streets we could have gardens growing food
Highways would change to mass transit in time
Two lanes at a time this would be fine
No more roads would be built it may take a while
Some how I think I’m not the only one to smile
Second and third rate products of any and all kind
Never last as long and help put us in this bind
Players and media for all entertainment needs
Small hard drives make these not fit our needs
Restaurants and people waste too much food
Many could be fed with what isn’t chewed
LED Christmas lights here is a great find
Why are we still making that other kind
Thousands of copies of the same books with the same pages
Libraries could have few of them and share them for the ages

There is a point I’m trying to make
There’s more than enough for everyone’s sake
Why make more than we need to make
When half of the stuff is more or less fake
Inventing technology has been our greatest strive
We still work as long just to survive
Only a few days that’s what we should work
Some say I’m crazy, some say I’m a jerk
Take all the people form all these areas’
Ones from the war machine to stop some hysteria
Gun makers and bullet makers and bio weaponist
Auto makers and related industries could all be put to rest
Manufactures no longer needed because we only make the best
Trees staying planted giving Mother Nature her rest
Less people delivering and still fewer selling
Is anyone catching what this cook is smelling
Restaurants only make what will be used in a day
Let’s not cut down the Amazon so a cow can eat hay
No more Telemarketers ringing your phone
Those internet spammers not invading your home
A stop to the pop-ups on the internet
Lets at least try get the last three lines met

Many more examples I could recite
But this is not the point to this blight
With all these people now out of work
I bet a lot more of you think I’m a jerk
All of these people could help lessen the load
We’ll have more free time for the spiritual road
Even though this would cost and use less
And maybe even sort some of this mess
Clear our skies and help with pollution
Some will still argue this is not a solution
There is nothing unrealistic that has been planned
Except it will take all of us to make the stand

We have technology and I see how much we could do
But when I look at the pyramids with what they did do
Even with slavery or devotion to some greater plan
Why are we not making something more grand

Count what you want gather what you can, like insects surrounded by the sand
A higher line of thinking should be for man, taking each step with others by hand
Care for the future of our great clan, together we can make a much better stand
Like the blind we’ll have nowhere to flee, I beg you please listen and heed
My energy leaves eyes wish not see, I hope I’ve planted even one little seed
Only enlightenment will help you be free, our potential is great not only a need

On a ball of dirt no bigger than an electron,
The Universe holds many more to step on.

Great good things will take a lot more of our time
Great bad things happen in the space of this rhyme.

In closing I leave you with one final thought
As I sip my tea because it’s too damn hot
I should have made this drink in a pot not a cup
Change is needed if we’re going to grow up

DaveMRJPotter
These can be shared freely; I have made these not for money but in hope. I ask only that they are not altered. I give them with Love
Copy write: DaveMRJPotter