It's around eight years since the invasion of Afghanistan led by the USA, UK, Canada, and various other NATO countries. The Taliban were officially removed from government and a democratically elected government is in power (around Kabul at least). The allied forces are now reduced to chasing highly mobile, adept and motivated force in a terrain that is proving difficult to find and engage the enemy head-on.

In 2002 President Bush publicly declared that the Taliban were defeated but seven years later it's clear that this statement was premature. There are still 'major offensives' underway along the mountainous Pakistan border. This is a region where gains are proving difficult to achieve and in some cases difficult to hold on to. The cost in life and resources is high and there is no end in sight to this conflict.

Is this turning into an exercise of diminishing returns?

Is it time to cut losses and leave this region to govern itself and sort out its own militant elements or is it worth the cost in lives and the financial cost to continue in a war of attrition?

I would have agreed with you a few years ago and said that we should be rid and never return. I have however become convinced that we cannot withdraw now without increasing the risk from terrorism.

Should the Talaban resume control of Afghanistan then there would almost certainly be a resurgence of terrorism against the western nations that engaged in the war against them in a form of retaliation for the war we have made them fight. Its inevitable now. Before we attacked them there was no telling what they would have done. They may have trained terrorists or they may have just left us alone.

Now however it's highly likely that they will take the opportunity to train insurgents and mount their own 'offensive' against us. Its a logical conclusion.

The problem we have is that our not insignificant forces are divided between not only our two fields of battle but also with our wider humanitarian/peace keeping obligations and the offensive in Afghanistan has taken something of a backseat whilst we attempted to sort our Iraq.

We started a new war without finishing the job in the first and as such made a mess of both. If we had committed all our forces to one theater then we would have had far more success than we have had.

Then we come to how we have run these attempts at violent westernization. We have gone into both Iraq and Afghanistan with the intent of brining democracy to the dark backlands of the world without every questioning how a people who have never experienced it would behave or react to the preposition. And whilst we have introduced democracy to these nations, I sincerely doubt that it would have lasted as long as it has had the people chosen a candidate that we did not favor.

In the end I think that we are stuck in Afghanistan for a very long time.

Edit: Of course I dislike the taliban for this amongst many other things.

This is a no win situation. History has proven that this part of the world cannot be controlled by anyone including the local people. Not to sound politically incorrect but it is pretty clear that most Afghanis are still living in society that is probably closer to the Stone Age than where the majority of us live. It's just the way it is and I don't see the US having any more success than did the Russians or the British or anyone else. If you seriously want to control the area then you need to think about completely killing off the local population. That's the bottom line. And that is also unacceptable to most societies.

At the same time, this "country", and Pakistan next door, are on the train to fanatical hell. And they will end up harming the rest of the world. That is reality no matter how much some politicians want to pretend that their countries can make accommodations to somehow accept or include diverse cultures within their own without problems. Britain and France, and Germany to a lessor extent, are perfect examples of nations that are pretending things in their own countries are just fine when in reality they all have horrible time bombs waiting to explode. When almost 10% of your population are people who have not, and will not, assimilate into the existing culture, and also espouse belief systems that are radically different, you have big problems. And when one culture or the other believes in the actual use of violence to expand their area of control you get a situation similar to that of today.

Fanatics of any ideology are the most dangerous people around. They will never quit until either you or they are dead.

I'm in the Canadian army and having just returned from there, I can say that it will definately take a lot longer than people think to bring stability to certain regions, specifically the Zhari, Panjwai district where I spent the bulk of my tour. This region has been referred to as "The Heart Of Darkness" by various people and I've even seen it reprinted in a few of the papers in Ottawa. With the exception of the new pledge of troops fro the States and the constant support of the Brits this has been up to this point; at least outside the wire a Canadian led war. It seems to me that people don't realize how active we are in this conflict. I agree with the above post saying that if we leave it will only alllow the taliban to reclaim their power. This is undoubtedly true and will only lead to more deaths, and these deaths would be of the civilian variety. Not to diminish the deaths of the troops, but we are not a conscripted army, we go in with eyes wide open and we know the risks. I think that one hundred soldiers losing their lives doing what they were born and oftentimes love to do, is preferably to say...one hundred civilians working in an office building dying in a fiery explosion. The scary thing is we are slated to pull out of Afghanistan in 2011; this is a political decision, if it were up to us--the soldiers we would stay there till it was stable, but we don't get to make those calls.

Forever is a long time.

anyone remember Vietnam?

seems like this is gonna be another stalemate to me

I think it will be relevant question in the context of current discussion - Why is Taliban still active, alive, existing and fighting after eight years of continued war?

Taliban is an isolated group, with no economic infrastructure, no ammunition factories, no gun factories and yet they are surviving and pretty much giving a hard time to NATO forces! It makes me think are we hitting the right spot? or are we merely hunting down uneducated unemployed men? And will we keep on shooting down everyone with a dick and an AK47.. till the last one will fell down?

I understand what you are saying but I don't agree that the Taliban or any other extremist militant factions need to be in power to be a terrorist threat. I think one of the reasons the Taliban have been such a tough nut to crack is that they don't operate under a traditional structure from one place with a single leader etc, their structure is far more organic. There isn't a single head on this creature that you can cut off and the rest will wither and die.

I think that the Taliban probably wouldn't attempt to take power again or not directly at least. I'm sure they realised it was exactly that which cost them dearly in the first few weeks of the war.

If my assumptions are true then there's very little point to the war as it stands now.

Simply speaking, I don't think the war is going to help at all against terrorism, infact, it might have encouraged and angered them into forming more attacks in retaliation. A common misconception is that "the terrorists hate us for our freedoms and wealth", no, they hate that you're in their homeland and will do anything to get you out.


Napoleon and the Soviets failed in Afghanistan, its probably time for the US to join the list.


And now people like Hilary Clinton are convinced the terrorists are in Pakistan. If the US attacks any more countries, whether it be Pakistan, Iran, North Korea or some other country, you can say bye to the US.

Not sure where you can draw the conclusion of saying "bye to the US" but I don't think that will happen in any of our lifetimes. I believe that the US has a superior military force that dwarfs many other nations. I also think the US has enough influence with other countries and allies that if anything bad happens to them (such as 9/11) that other countries will pitch in and help with whatever they need or want as evidenced through the middle east wars. Hillary Clinton is far from an intelligent military person, but even the Pakistani government knows that there are terrorists are using a specific trail to gain entry into the country. Terrorists and radical ideals aren't limited geographically; they can travel to any country at nearly any time as indicated by bombings in Spain and London, and more recently the hotel bombings in Pakistan (I think).

I do think that "the terrorists hate us for our freedoms and wealth" is more accurate than you think; isn't that why the terrorists flew planes into buildings a few years ago? Wasn't their goal to try and disrupt American wealth and trade? Isn't also true that they openly denounce many of our freedoms as sacrilege? I'm not on the up and up on what the radical/extremist Islams and terrorists rank high on their agenda, but there is a general consensus that they do not like many western ideals and beliefs.

However, I do agree that continuing war is just stoking the fire. A large, strategic military group can only do so much against guerrilla forces hiding in caves and mountains.

I see that the Uk has just downgraded the official terrorism threat level from severe to substantial. Link. They hasten to point out that this won't make any difference to the way people live and the domestic security levels being employed.

They site the war in Afghanistan as one of the main reasons for terrorism being less likely.

Is this the truth?

I can't help thinking that it could as easily be that they marginally reduce the threat level to attempt to justify a prolonged, expensive war with very few gains and no end in sight to a public who are becoming edgy about a steady stream of military personnel and private contractors being killed.

Maybe the expense of this war in the face of the recent hard times financially in the UK as well as the constant additions to the body count on all sides this could just be a sugar coating on a pill that's becoming increasingly difficult to swallow by Joe Public.

Totally Agree there Badog..a sugar coated pill indeed..!
I have said before and will nodoubt again..The people of Afghanistan will not be "tamed" for 3000+ years the peoples of that region have been warring in one way or another, just because the Christian west wants to come in and instill a westernstyle democracy does`nt mean the people of that region want one..The Russians put Hunderds of thousands of troops in there and still did`nt make a blind bit of difference to how the region is run.How do our western governments Expect our Boys and Girls to do any different even if they have the most modern technology(arguably)..The Afghan people know the county its terrain and how to fight there,as I said before they have been doing so for the last few millenia so what's going to stop them now?..certainly not a few thousand Troops from the west..
I say pull our troops out and leave them to it..Some might say that this will mean that those who have fallen will have died in vain..I say not!..The people of all sides should not have been in this war to start with and many many more will follow if we don`t leave the region alone to get back to its own level of peace.
I read in one of the other posts that the terrorist threats might actually go up if we leave the region....I don`t see that happening.The western governments have done the terrorists jobs for them by changing the way everyone here in the west lives and the increased security (I say that with a wry grin) lessened freedom and stupid security protocols that can`t even be said to work properly! A few armed police at the Airports and sea ports is not going to stop someone who is hell bent on Blowing themselves up for their cause or Belief..
As for the cost of the ongoing Conflict...We are supposed to be in the Beginning/middle of a Global down turn in the world wide economy..Our Governments cannot in reality think that we can continue spending on this (in my opinion)Un-ethical and un-nessasary war on these people...Remember we have been told we have to tighten our belts and that things in the financial sense are probably going to get worse before they get better..How can the Governments of the nations leading this "war on terror" expect their people to carry on paying for this when there are no percieved positive results.?.
Its a very strange situation to have an international "peacekeeping force" having their arses handed to them by a bunch of half arsed mountain men..
just my opinion..

That is so true.

As has been pointed out already, Afghanistan has historically been the graveyard of just about every expeditionary force that has tried to impose it's will on the area. The Afghans have always been guerrilla fighters. The topography of the country has dictated that fact. They know the lay of the land intimately, and any regular army is going to find it nigh on impossible to make any long-term military gains there. As for the Taleban, let us not forget that they are a creation of the West, trained, financed and armed by us during the Cold War period when the Soviets were (unsuccessfully) trying to do what the West is trying to do now.

I think that if we pull out the military, and put in some experienced advisors to the incumbent government (not some half-baked lefty do-gooders, but people who understand the realities of life in a country like Afghanistan, where life is harsh and life is cheap), a lot more will be achieved.

It's an unwinnable war, and the sooner we wake up to that fact, the better. We shouldn't be sending ill-equipped boys and girls out there to be blown up by a faceless enemy. As for "winning hearts and minds", how the hell do they expect to do that while they're busy destroying the main cash crop (opium) that is available to the farmers there? A little lateral thinking is needed. There is a worldwide shortage of Opoid painkillers, the most effective painkillers available to medicine. Is it so difficult to arrange to buy all the opium the farmers can grow for processing into pharmaceutical products? Even if it's a trade that runs at a loss (which I don't think it would), it will still be cheaper than fighting a war. At a stroke, we would gain the support of the villages concerned while depriving the Taleban of their main source of finance. Not to mention taking a massive amount of heroin off the streets of US and Europe.

The biggest problem is that our politicians only understand the sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach to the situation. Just no subtlety...

source

The Taliban have more recently and to some degree still are been trained and supported by the Pakistani army and ISI. Source




I don't think the allied forces are ill equipped and any war is winnable if you have the resources and sufficient disregard for the cost. I just think at this stage the cost of winning compared to the gains that will be had isn't remotely worth it.

The US forces are probably well equipped, but it would seem that the UK government is dragging it's feet on that level...

British government criticized over Afghanistan equipment ...

British military in Afghanistan 'insufficiently resourced', says ...

In Afghanistan , Bloodied Brits Struggle with Inadequate Gear ...

And there's lots more like that.

Bloody politicians. If they were on the front line, you can bet your bottom dollar there would be better equipment available...

Again I have to aggree that no war is unwinnable ..The cost of fighting this so called war on Terror is well beyond the gains that would be had..We still have no proof that the Taliban was responsible for any of the major atrocities the Various governments have been telling us they were,and I have to put my hands up and say I haven`t got the foggiest Idea why we are fighting for this land..
Islamic Fundamentalists are at large through out the Arab world and beyond...Are we going to invade every country that holds muslim beliefs'
Bush is gone so we don`t have to finish a War his dad started and our troops are in constant battle to hold lands that are virtually worthless to the west,If the only reason given is to put and end to the "possible" Terrorist threat then we are barking up the wrong tree. The Billions of pounds and Dollars would be better spent else where in the world fighting disease and hunger instead of creating a Place that we will no-doubt have to pay repairations to in the future.
As nisakiman said.."If it was the politicians on the front line there would no doubt be better equipment available"..!,If we were there at all..

I think I could have explianed my self better on this. I'm not doubting that the UK or any other sector of the allied forces could be better equipped I just don't think they are ill equipped. The problem is that high-tech equipment isn't really the answer to defeating an enemy, in this type of terrain, that's so mobile and fragmented and easily able to blend in with the local civilian population.

No matter how much more military hardware you throw at this you may make it safer for the soldier on the ground but it won't noticeably expedite the conclusion of the war. From your links; heavier armoured vehicles for example are a defensive measure, not an offensive one. They will protect troops from IED's whilst in transit but they won't end the war any faster. Air support such as helicopters is exactly as its name suggests, it's not the primary way of confronting this type of enemy, it's support for troops on the ground who are involved in prolonged contact with the enemy. In this type of war there's no substitute for getting your hands dirty and that's unfortunately going to cost lives.

The victories being achieved are not proportional to the financial expenditure being made, far from it, if that were the case the allies would have achieved their goals long ago. I suspect the governments involved have also figured this out and are making their spending decisions based rather more on balancing the fiscal cost of the war against the number of their troops being killed per month/year as well as the gains being made.

@Knightron, I'm a little more convinced of the Taliban role in the atrocities committed than you are but I certainty agree with you on there being no end in sight. I am as appalled at the terrorist actions against the many western civilians as anyone was but I also think the efforts would be better focused elsewhere where there might be a better cost to gain ratio.

Hi Again Badog..I have no doubt that the Taliban had input into the atrocites but actually being responsible for them I don`t think they have the where with all to perpurtrate said actions alone..Yes some of these fanatics were trained by the west but They are not able to carryout that magnitude of terror we saw in the last few years with out (I feel ) the help of some western nation....You know as well as I do what the politicians are capable of in the name of greed and political gain..

source
I would love to know how much money the companies are going to make repairing Iraq and Afghanistan..
I also wonder who the Head shed are who own these billion dollar companies...

link

I'll just say this ,we pushed them into pakistan and what happened ?

they [pakistan] gave them safe haven and they violated it and were moving towords the capital of pakistan weekly killing and taking land
why ?
simple the nukes are there!!!

so do you really want to let them be???

I for one say no
simply put these people are bad, bad ,bad they kill their own for small violations of right's the rest of the world has [ women bring up any thoughts??] and have out and out said their goal is a islamic world and that all infadells should die[ infadell= non-islamic which means a lot of the world] I have no religion so I know I'm on their list and the rest of you well even if islamic you think if they get their islamic world they will chill out ?? probily not
you can only keep a people down for ever by killing all that disagrees so after us it will be the islamic that don't believe as them

so do you think if they whoop the U.S. they will stop there??
no the rest of you will then be on their list only then we won't be there to help you and if they beat us they will have our money and arms..........................sounds like a safer , and fairer world to me....LOL

I only hope I and my grandkids never live to see the day

I believe they have the right to be as they want to be as long as they keep their beliefs at home
when they start forcing their values on the rest of the world
they should be stopped specialy since their way of change is death!!!!!

I'm sure some one will post the U.S. force it way on the world and we kill......well most countrys want what we have just with their rules cool fine but don't blame us if after some freedom your people want more

and killing we all kill and yesI'm sure my country has killed legaly and illegaly......but they keep the illegal from us to because peole like me would complain if we knew they were doing it

not all americans are bad but I will admit some of our Government is...........we don't know till we catch them and since they can under the claim of national security hide stuff it's hards for us to sort out but we try

Hi Haskins
Please don't take it personally but I didn't find you post very easy to follow in some parts so aI might have misunderstood some of your points.


I think it's safe to say that the Taliban don't have direct access to nukes even though they are across the Pakistan border.


I agree the Taliban are religious extremists who will kill for their beliefs.


I wasn't suggesting the allies were even remotely in danger of defeat.


I'm inclined to disagree that any type of forceful imposition of your will on another person against their free will as well as oppression or violations of basic human rights are okay just as long as it's behind closed doors. Human rights are human rights, the time or the place shouldn't detract from these rights under any circumstances.

I`m not having a dig at the American people Haskins...What I`m saying is the politicians of all nationalities stand to gain a great deal from the Wars currently waging in the Middle East...I really don`t think its the west's right to be the "policeforce" for the World,be it American led or not...who are we from the west to tell the Peoples of the MiddleEast how to live their lives?...We are only there for the Money and to protect the Oil interests ( If we can Call them that..) It really upsets me that Our Boys and Girls (All western Troops..)are being sent out the Afghanistan and other places to fight a people that not only don`t want war but have asked to halt the war...The only People who want the war is the fanatics (islamic fundamentalists and Religious Zealots..on Both sides..),and I dare say the Politicians and figure heads of the companies ( Nice Link Badog..) that stand to gain Billions in contracts to repair the mess we the west have made..
The Only thing we have left to be proud of in our country(uk) now is our Armed forces..They are brave indeed,But for the Government to Keep telling the British public and the World at large that our Troops ( all the troops there ) are fighting to protect our Freedom is (In my opinion) just a load of Rubbish..!
We are being used by the political Giants of the world as Bullies to get money from the Less well prepared and able countries of the world..And it needs the entire Population of the world to wake up and smell the roses ,Because if we don`t then we will all be in a world of shit..I see in the next 2-3 years the situation in the Middle East escalating to the Brink again..I just hope that we all are waking up to the fact that we( the west ) are our own worst enemy and we need to rein in these fanatics on both sides and make sure we don`t tip the world into apocolyptic Freefall...

I never said they had the nukes I just believe they where headed for the capital to take over which would lead them to being in control of the nukes

I have no trouble with no religion ...people can believe as they want to believe......as long as they allow me that same right

I never said you said we were close to defeat

what I meant and thought I said was If we were defeated what would happen ?

what if we pulled out thinking it is useless ?

the answer to both is they would grow and come back only stronger , and if they beat us first them come after the rest of you
then how will you stand if you wait till they are after you personally and they take you one by one?

I believe the world as a whole should stop them and any one else who denis their people the right to fair process and kills those know would be oppossion against them instead of doing the will of THE PEOPLE of that country and this very much includes all the bad going on in Africa now

we are all humans and all have right to live be happy and believe as we feel as long as we don't imposse that on others

and we as a world have a responcablity to make sure everone get's those right if we ever hope to live toghter as a world community
with out desroying ourselfs as a race

and these people will be the end of us if we don't stop them now will we can

I may not be right , I may be wrong ..............but that's how I feel


peace .............later and I don't want to see any one dead , unless they are trying to hurt we or mine or endanger our future

Is`nt that what the west is trying to do now?..Impose a Western style Democracy on the people there?..Even after we (the west )have been told they don`t want or need it..! who are we to decide thats what should happen there?..

you are right that everyone should be able to access the right to Freedom of their choosing..
What the western powers are doing is saying that they are wrong in the way they live and should have a democracy there based on Western standards..The Peoples of the Middle east have been living the same way for thousands of years mate ,and Its not the wests' place to go there and tell em they "Need" a western style democracy..!is it?

I aggree that we as human beings should seek out what is best for our fellow man,But we cannot impose what is good for us on to another race or creed.It is irresponsible of the west to just think they can rule the world by force if nessasary to uphold their beliefs',not only that in instills hatred towards the people who are doing so..
I understand your way of thinking here with the "These people will be the end of us"..If by that you mean the Islamic fundamentalists /Terrorists,Then they mean us harm because we have invaded their country..What everyone forgets is that we (the west ) are the occupying force here and we are in their country ,not because they really want us there (The majority anyway ) The majority of the people of those lands want to live in peace in their own way as they have for millenia..not have some western Army flooding in to take their land and make it unusable for them..
As I have said in one of my earlier posts I don`t believe that the threat of Terrorism would increase any if we were to pull out of that region...I think they would just be Glad to get shut of us,and start rebuilding their livelyhoods again..
Just my opinion..

I agree with you Knightron, We are an occupying force and this is a catalyst for the fighters in Afghanistan and elsewhere to attack the armed forces that are there.

But what I'm going to say is that a conflict like this was inevitable at some future point. A strict interpretation of Islam (as well as the other Abrahamic religions) Leads to a culture that is the antithesis of modern western life and ideals with many of the rights that we take for granted being severely curtailed and Sharia's concept of just punishment has a lot to be desired.

This coupled with Islam's requirement for self-propagation to spread it's self to every corner of the world will inevitable lead it into to contact with the West.

History is full of examples of cultures of differing ideological beliefs living in close relation to one another. In many (if not all cases) they end in blood shed.

Islam in general looks upon the West as decadent and in many ways an affront to Allah that must be curtailed. The moderates do this by living a life of modesty and passing on the message of Islam in the community, the extremists do this by blowing up skyscrapers and subway trains.

A war between Western ideals and the world of Islam was a historical inevitability. It happened once before with the Christian west vs. Muslim middle east, now history has repeated itself with the Secular West vs. Muslim middle east.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan etc. It was going to happen some where and some when. Some times I think perhaps it is better on our terms.

QUOTE (source)

Following the deaths of eight British soldiers in two days in Afghanistan, everyone is suddenly asking: what are we doing there? Eight years too late, commentators and political oppositionists are raising questions about the casus belli of the war, trying to decipher why ‘our boys’ are still in the hot, dusty, dangerous terrain of Helmand, and whether it is worth it.

Casus Belli = Cause of incident or War..Wiki

This Article was printed in July 2009 but still asks the pertinent question..Why are we there?....I`ll just post a couple of quotes from this Article and see what you Guy's and Gals make of em..I think that we are constantly being desensitized to the War in Afghanistan and it needs to be Kept at the forefront of our minds..We are still losing people over there in what I consider a totally unwarrented military action..People will say if they would stop Blowing our Guy's up we would leave..They could`nt Blow them up if they were not there..! is my reply to that..!


Source

We Are continually being told we are at war on The terrorist threat to the West...We have still not been given any incidental propf of where this percieved threat lies or where its goals lie ..!I understand the public are afraid after the Terrorist incidents Both sides of the atlantic, but here in the UK we are told the London Bombers were UK citizens.. and if thats the case why are we not seeing action to remove the threats from our own soil?never mind thousands of miles away in someone elses country!
Another Prime example of Political Scaremongering to gain the Multi-Billion dollar contracts to repair the Damage the Political Tyrants of the west are Causing to the people of Afghanistan..

I'm not one to subscribe to conspiracy theories, so I don't think that these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were started for financial reasons. I see the vested interests more in the role of ambulance-chasers, or perhaps vultures would be more apt. I agree with knightron that it should not be our responsibility to be a global police force, however there is more to these wars than a sense of moral outrage at the local injustices that needed addressing. As RV pointed out



This is realpolitik. Do we adopt a bunker mentality and wait to see what will happen, or do we take the fight to them? And of course, there is the added incentive of energy (oil) security in the case of Iraq.

With Afghanistan, the fear, I think, was that the Taleban (who, let us not forget, are a bunch of murderous, intolerant, 13th century mindset zealots intent on spreading their warped vision of normality as far and wide as the rest of the world will let them) were really posing a destabilising threat to the whole of south asia. If they were allowed to pursue their agenda, we would end up with a situation far worse than that which we have now.

Now what is needed is a real strongman to take charge of Afghanistan so that the troops can pull out. Sadly, western sensibilities won't allow that to happen. They haven't got the message yet that western style democracy doesn't really work in central asia - not yet, anyway.

I sound like an apologist for the war in Afghanistan, which I'm not. It appalls me that we are losing so many young men in what seems a pointless exercise. but I can't ignore the very real threat that the Taleban posed. The question for the west now is "How do we extricate ourselves without losing everything that our troops have paid the ultimate price to gain?"

It's a difficult one. Particularly so because people from those regions only respect strength and power. The democratic principle doesn't come into it.

Every war and skirmish that NATO has been involved in recently has posed exactly this problem and there never seems to be a plan after the profits of rebuilding under an occupying force have been reaped. This war was no exception. The winning of the wars is the easy part with such a combined strength, using the military victory and the removal of the offending regime as a foundation to create stability in the region is where it all falls flat.

Britains’ mission in Afghanistan could last for up to 40 years General Sir David Richards, who becomes Chief of the General Staff on August 28, said: “The Army’s role will evolve, but the whole process might take as long as 30 to 40 years.”

He emphasised that British troop involvement, currently 9,000-strong, should only be needed for the medium term, but insisted that there was “absolutely no chance” of Nato pulling out. “I believe that the UK will be committed to Afghanistan in some manner — development, governance, security sector reform — for the next 30 to 40 years,” he said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6788043.ece edit fixed link

Governance for forty years......This could be construed as colonialism in a new suit of clothes......

Yes, you're right. It doesn't bode well......

I think the Canadian military should withdraw troops from Afghanistan immediately. We have already lost too many to war that may go on for decades. It was originally started to go after Bin Laden. I don't think he is even there anymore. It's too bad that the Canadian government are slaves to American politicians.

The problem is that if you remove the government from a country by force and just pull out immediately afterwards then civil war will follow and millions of civilians will become collateral damage and refugees. The whole area wil become unstable as a result. You have a responsibility to ensure the country is under stable governance when you leave it whatever the cost and the allies knew this before they invaded.

source

Well things aren't getting any better. August saw 47 US troops killed mostly bombs, IED's and suicide attacks. There are grave doubts about the legitimacy of the election results with very low voter turnout and claims of election irregularities abound. The results may not be certified for many months.

The allies are in a position where their hopes of assisting the local law enforcement to a point of being capable of maintaining stability without occupying forces cannot materialise in thisenvironment. The extremists are in an ideal position to wage a war of attrition for many years, they have a sustainable system of suicide bombers, improvised incendiary attacks on convoys and general hit and run disruptive attacks to ensure that the body bags keep arriving in the US and other allied countries. Public opinion in the allied countries along with dubious support of the Afghanistan population for their government will quite possibly win this war for the Taliban given enough time.

please all of you don't believe on what media says, if you wanna ask questions please refer me, because i am working in kabul of US forces, you can ask me regarding taliban.

nm currently living and working with forces in kabul

ty

Hi mohseen..
I for one, would be Interested to hear 'your' opinion on the current situation.

Best of luck with your current posting and keep safe, you're doing a difficult job out there, with little, 'real' International support.

+1

Things I am curious about are schools, basic utilities, and about the behavior of the coalition troops when dealing with civilians.

Well i have been reading a lot on Afganistan, well i think a lot of you and the Idiots who rule us
should go and study your history, a few years ago the USSR went into Afganistan,who trained the locals then, but the American goverment. The same with the IRAN and IRAG war who supplied the IRAG Goverment with arms, it was the Americans, Because America wants the rest of the world to be like them. and our stupid British goverment surports them . Look at Bush and Blair who started this they are now out of Goverment and they dont care a hoot our many of our Soldiers Die. Because at the end of the Day they are nothing but bullies, and a bully is a coward, he starts the trouble and then get sombody else to sort it out and thats the soldiers.
It make my Blood Boil when Bush and Blair go to church every Sunday, yes to pray for all the soldiers they have sent to there death.

the bullies are the ones who flew airplanes into buildings
who cut off peoples hands, ears ect.....
who kill women for showing their faces

I'm ex military.............do I agree with all my country did/does....??

No I don't!!!

but I agree with them more than I agree with the bad guys

want us to leave.............................give us BIN LAUDEN!!!!

The problems over there will never be fixed , our style of goverment will never work for them , we can't force a whole nation of people to change how they think and do things , we have now made a shit storm of more problems in this area . I think it was a huge mistake to invade Afghanistan " remember Russia " , all we are doing is making more of them hate us ! and that makes more terrorist . if we would acually help them by doing somthing good for there country " schools , hospitals , rebuilding homes , ect: , show them we want to help , and let them decide what is good for there country , we have enough problems in our own countrys that we showed fix first before anything else , I hope our goverments can figure how to end this before to many more of our young men/woman die

so whats your sugjestion?

leave them be?
let them rebuild the terrorist camps..?remember we bombed them years ago

leaving that place or any place like it alone [like most of africa ] is like leaving a infectted finger alone...............its not gonna kill you now .............but leave it be long enough and the infection will spread...............and then you die , just a little later , and with a lot more pain

and saying they been like that for ever..............well makes no sense

all the rest of the world IS changing...............but because they are a hard fight or because they simply don't want to change along with THE REST OF THE WORLD..............the world is suppose to just let them do and think in the cruel and evil way they do

you know , I to think the world would be better off if we rolled the clock back 200-300 years , simplier life , simplier law , ect...........

but guess what..................I live in the real world I know thats not gonna happen

for better or worst [ the way things are now probily for the worst]...............time and the world will go forward..............with or without them

but I for one am not willing to leave them be , to grow , re-group , and figure another way to kill me or my fellow americans or anyone else for that fact

and those of you who beleive leaving them be is the right answer................If it happens.............I hope when they attack next its your country or your loved ones.................then you'll know............evil should of been stopped there............and every where else in the world

yes even and especially in the big bankers here................because I know in truth it was their actions that pissed these people off

but that still doesn't justify how they treat their people or inter act with the rest of the world

I guess all I was sugjesting is that we should have left them alone many years ago ! it was not my goverment that trained and armed them to fight ! just like iraq ? if you keep on poking a dog sooner or latter it will bite back !!

you mention Africa !!!!! your goverment does nothing to stop the horrible crimes happening there , why because NO OIL .

How many dictactors has the USA PUT INTO POWER than figure out it was a mistake .

This is what I'am worried will happen again in Afghanistan and Iraq !!!!!!!!!!!! it is a no win situation .

So all I'am saying is that i wish we would have left them alone , just like in Africa because there is no oil no armys are sent there to stop all the killing still happening today , and how many terrorist have come out of Sierra Leone , Rep of Congo , Democratic of Congo , Uganda , Rawanda , Kenya ect just to name a few mest up countrys in Africa , probly not many !! why is that ? well because we have never put a army there , and our goverments don't give a shit what happens over there.

And you worried on how they treat there people ?

Well how about Saudi Arabia , Kuwait how do you think they treat there woman . you gonna invade them ? OH wait a sec , your goverment has contracts with them , and how about China at one time didn't your goverment hate communism " Vietnam , Cuba , North Korea "
you say the rest of the world is changing and moving ahead ? there are still many counties and goverments killing there own people out there .
So really nothing has changed ,

Canada has been in many conflicts as PEACE KEEPERS , and we have never been attacked before , now that we have went to Afghan I think we have put our selves in the line of fire , we are no longer just peace keepers witch is what we should have stayed at ?

AND nothing will change till the "sheepeople" in my country and yours and many others stand up to those really using us as pawns to make their money

you think average "American Joe" or average "Chuck Canadian" make the rules or the hate in this world??

no its the corrupt Governments!!

I don't get a check from Haliburton or McDonald douglas...........and I'm betting you don't either

but they though their "Lobbist" set the rules
sure we can vote out some corrupt congressmen , but first you need a good replacement...........we don't have any

average honest , people don't have the money to run for office [or the want ] so we vote like I'm sure you do in your country................for the lesser of the evils

and I never doubted the bad in Africa...............remember I brought it up

I just didn't point blame or a reason why we don't stop it...............I just said evil should be stopped every where even there


a good rule or small set for any religion or person is simple

"wrong is still wrong ........even when every one is doing it"
"and right is still right.........even when no one is doing it"

if bankers , governments ..............and just everyday people lived by these 2 simple rules.................we would have 99% less trouble in the world

after all in our hearts every single one of us knows right and wrong

we just ignor the right and justify the wrong to meet our own ends.................which is the ultimate wrong

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. It is a brutal attack on innocent people. Islam is a religion that means "peace". In the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, God

commands believers to bring peace and security to the world. Terrorism and all other mischief on Earth are the very acts that Muslims are commanded by God to

stand against.

The Islamic morality is the cure for terrorism, not the source of it. Those who resort to or support terrorism in the name of Islam are in a great error.

They are committing a crime which God has cursed in the Koran. All true Muslims denounce terrorism of any kind, and share the sorrows of its victims.

We cannot blame religion for the errors of those who use its name or symbols to justify their heinous actions. all religions, have had their share of people who claimed

to be strict adherents of their tradition, but who actually grossly misinterpreted their sacred texts to suit their own agendas!!!


It is not the case that the Muslim world hates the 'West'. There are many Muslims living in the West and it would be hypocritical to denounce in a rhetoric

of hate the very host country that has welcomed them. Most Muslims realise that there are many similarities extant in the West to Islamic precepts, such as freedom,

tolerance, the right to education, and civil liberties . . .


for the people who link and describe Islam to terrorism, I have only one thing to say: Islam is innocent of terrorism, and terrorism has no religion.

peace,

well said ...................and you notice I didn't claim a religion , or a race where to blame

I said bad guys..............because thats what terrorist are bad guys
be they green , blue , white or brown
be they Islamic , buddist , cathlic , or mormon

wrong is wrong ..................and I'm sure each race , religion , has rules against it

my only question is..............what about those [spelling warning] "Madassas" or religious schools
where religion and hate for the west are taught hand in hand
its fine............and mostly right to defend you religion
but don't defend those who twist your religion and us it to destory my people , and use your link with your religion to twist and corrupt yours

maybe the world or at least me wouldn't be as harsh on Islam
if Islam actually policed their own and did their part to stop those corrupting their religion , and the veiw the world has of it

you know if a high % of terrorist where say girl scouts...................then to clear their good name after being labeled terrorist
the girl scouts would have to clean their own house to remove those bringing a bad name on their Orginization

same here 99% of the terrorist I've heard of are "Islamic"
so shouldn't the good "Islamic" people stop those giving them a bad name??

slightly however....


Long before Al Quaeda and similar became news-worthy, the only major 'terrorist' organisations that regularly gained any sort of attention (in Europe, at least) were the I.R.A and E.T.A (neither of which are Muslim)

Its understandable that the U.S didn't pay much attention to the activites by these people - it was all happening far away and didn't affect them etc, however prior to 9.11, the deadliest act of terrorism commited on American soil was perpetrated by Timothy McVeigh (a 'lapsed' Catholic & a U.S citizen)

I see your point about profiling Islamists, but it is difficult for such a 'community' to police itself. Lets not forget that there are as many variations of Islam (shia, Sunni, Khawarij and all their associated) as there are christians (methodist, catholic, baptist etc.) One cannot ask such a spread out faith to police extremists from other areas of the faith.

It's a religion not a people.

Look at the pope and paedophiles? Should the Baptists be seeking out catholic priests and imprisoning them?

In relation to SN's post I link to a wiki about 'home grown' terrorism in the US. linky

The USA is very recently on its high horse about terrorism but only because some of the recent acts are on its own soil and now with first hand experience of the consequences it has been relabeled as the War On Terror. Up until a few years ago the US was happy to promote and fund terrorism when it suited them, even when its supposed allies were on the receiving end..... I would cite organisations such as Noraid that operated for decades in the US.